West Germany’s network videotex system, Bildschirmtext, was largely used for payment services by the Deutsche Bank, while its system was supported by hardware from the UK as West Germany continued to liberalise its society and economy. However its liberal use and basic encryption caused a few issues, irking Europe’s biggest hacking community Chaos Computer Club, sparking off it’s world-wide fame via the BTX-Hack. The girls talk about the anarchist attitudes in 80s divided Germany, the post-WW2 political and economic splitting that created this videotex system, and reminisce about the nostalgic aesthetics of Deutsche Telekom.
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Hello.
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Welcome to our friend the computer,
we're a computer history podcast.
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I'm Camila.
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I'm a artist, writer, researcher.
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And I'm here with Ana.
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Mm. In real life in London.
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Normally, we do this across the seas,
but we are both in London.
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We're actually in the same house.
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And we.
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We tried to record this in the same room.
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It couldn't work out.
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So we're currently sitting
in different versions of the same house.
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Yeah, that's.
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That's
how Luddite we are with our technology.
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Is that we couldn't figure out how
to record with two mikes in the same room.
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So we had to separate.
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Which is sad. Sad.
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But it does feel more natural
to be looking at you and saying,
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Oh, that would be so much more fun
to like, do it in the same room,
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but maybe a different vibes
would be really different.
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When we did the test recording,
we were like, This feels weird
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when we are in the same room
and felt like felt wrong.
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But now we're back to normal.
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So it's ok
we're like pretending to be URL, but
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we're actually IRL. We're across the hall.
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Yeah.
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I've been on so many calls recently
where it's like three people in one room
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with like two people on the screen
and we're just trying to figure out how to
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make it work.
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The worst part of that is that the people
on the screen are usually projected
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Really really large
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Yeah.
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On the wall
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I'm in like a video art
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crit group in New York
and it's really it's really great.
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And there's some amazing artists in it.
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And we meet up once a month
and in like a studios
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screening space and somebody or two people
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will will show their work
and then we talk about it.
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But I couldn't attend the last one
because I had a
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like a COVID exposure
and I didn't get COVID, but it was like
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I was just being careful
that that my friend Erica,
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like, cradled me in her arms,
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like in a laptop screen.
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Oh my god.
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Like a laptop baby.
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Yeah, She would, like,
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turn me to look at people,
but I didn't know if I could be heard.
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And so I kept texting her and being like,
Can you just say this?
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And then she'd be like, Camila says this.
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I felt like I was. Yeah.
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I don't know.
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Existing that through. Through her. Yeah.
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It's so awkward when you have to exist
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As like a severed head in a space.
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When I saw you, we were like,
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at a café at the British Museum.
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And there was something about because it's
so, like, white
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in more ways than one.
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And you were sitting,
like, at a desk in the cafe
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table in the café,
and then you were sort of framed.
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And then I just felt like
I was looking at a screen.
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Yeah.
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When we met
for the first time in real life,
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we yeah, we were like,
sitting opposite to each other.
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And it did kind of feel
like I was just looking at a screen,
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but it was slightly more 3D because you're
right, the way that it was lit,
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like the British Museum
has this huge kind of windowed roof.
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So the lighting was incredible
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and it
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definitely felt like some kind of studio
setup.
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Yeah.
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So now
we're going to do a podcast episode.
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I feel kind of a little like,
not quite right.
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Everything feels a little off,
but yeah, we'll see how today goes.
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Yeah, this is quite an exciting episode
because it's about
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Belgium text and I'm half German
and I speak the language
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and I visit my extended family in Germany
quite often,
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so I know it's common knowledge,
but I never get tired of the fact
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that Germans love a word amalgamation.
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And I used to see it everywhere.
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I even see it in the public world
when I walk through Germany
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like cafes will be an amalgamation
or like by trees and things like that.
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And yeah, they just love Mentos.
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I think that's the word,
which is like the merging words
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together to form one
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new word and you get words
that are sometimes
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at least 30 characters long,
which is crazy.
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But I guess when you're saying the word,
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it doesn't feel like like for me, I don't
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speak like three words of German.
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So, you know, every word sounds
just like a sound, you know.
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But yeah, I guess if you
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if you know German,
you would understand the components.
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Yeah. Of the language.
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So even though it's really long,
it wouldn't to me it's like, Whoa.
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Yeah. It's still part of a sentence.
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Yeah.
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And sentences are also
the merging of words.
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They all sound like one big word if you're
speaking in a different language.
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But a great example of portmanteau is,
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is Belgium text,
which translates to scream text.
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But this word has two layers of compound
words, actually.
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So the first instance of that is Belgium,
which means screen.
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But the direct translation of that
is also emerged.
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Word of the word bilt meaning
image and shim, which means umbrella.
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I actually looked it
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up and I went into Google Translate and
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I just typed in Shem without detecting,
without saying what language it is.
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But I wanted the robot.
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Yeah. So yeah.
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And shim actually means screen in Dutch.
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Oh yeah.
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Shim can also mean screen in German,
but it's more rare.
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But yeah,
I thought that this was quite a cute
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kind of definition of screen,
which kind of means umbrella.
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An umbrella means kind of a shield.
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Yeah.
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So anyway, I thought this was quite a cute
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definition of screen,
which means the image means umbrella.
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An umbrella
is kind of seen as like a shield.
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I guess Screen can also be.
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Doesn't
have to mean like a computer screen.
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Yeah, because other work
like screen can also be.
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Yeah, like a shield,
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but it's sort of interesting
looking at this portmanteau thing
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because I think it was last episode
we were talking about how like, you know,
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all of these are video tech systems
that they all had to have that are
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in unique name, teletext and video text
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amalgamations or compound words.
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And usually they
they were sort of like a play
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on telly or video and then like text text
or something like that.
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But this is,
this is a little more creative.
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I like this one.
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Yeah,
it's pretty much a complete translation,
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a complete adaptation to German,
whereas you would have.
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Yeah.
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Like you said, in other countries
they would just take the English word
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and then just add like an O to the end of
it to like, make it sound more Spanish or
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Portuguese or Portuguese. I
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So yeah, so Belgium
text was an online video tech
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system launched in West Germany in 1983
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and similar to Presto in the UK,
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it was developed
by the National Postal Service.
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And it's quite ironic
because although Belgium text
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was a portmanteau
so intentionally kind of amalgamated,
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it was later
shortened and abbreviated to Btecs
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kind of sounds like a cryptocurrency now,
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and I guess because it was just
too long of a word to use
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when it was Btecs is was it
pronounced BTEC?
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So is it pronounced like how those letters
would be said in German
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Btecs would be said in German like that.
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They two X,
which is basically the same letter X.
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That's great.
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It's basically the same. Yeah.
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Which is quite handy here.
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And in 1949, Germany
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formally split
into two independent nations,
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which was the Federal Republic of Germany,
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the FDR or West Germany,
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which was kind of allied
to the Western democracies
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next to the German Democratic Republic,
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which is GDR or East Germany,
which was allied to the Soviet Union.
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And this continued until 1990
when the two sides sides
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merged, represented and kind of trumpeted
by the famous fall of the Berlin Wall.
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What I mean, you know,
I know a bit about this history, but
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were they actually completely separate?
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They were separate countries. Yeah.
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That was in my head.
I thought that that was that.
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It was just kind of like divided
and I never really considered
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what that meant
in terms of like governing.
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And so, so even when you would have
if you would ever have people
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traveling from one side to the other,
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you would go through these checks
and you would go check your passport.
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And actually the checks were even more
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intense then than traveling
to any other European country.
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It's just funny because like, yeah,
I know all of that.
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I just hadn't clicked in my head,
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I guess, because I was born
just as the wall fell.
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So I guess, yeah,
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it just hadn't clicked for me
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that they were actually
completely separate countries.
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Yeah, but I mean, it is quite weird
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because before then West Germany
was kind of entrenched
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with the Western heralding of progress
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invested into developing technology,
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and they launched Belgium text,
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which collated data
through the telephone network
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and then displayed the
content on a television set
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which was
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very similar to Presto
and it also drew inspiration
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from many tell in France by including
some of the features in its display.
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So well.
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So unlike minutes.
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So it wasn't so much like terminal
terminally access terminal access.
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It was like more through
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like an adapter and then the TV set.
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Okay.
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And then also, I mean, last that
last episode when we looked at kept
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and we also were kind of looking
at the way that Europe,
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I guess, divide it up
all these different video text protocols.
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And I did notice last last episode that
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Belgium text had its own protocol.
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Yeah.
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So did they develop like it was inspired
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by Presto and Mini Tell Tale Hotel,
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but it was its own
like completely separate development.
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No. So they use c
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one, but cpt1 was vtech,
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c P2 I think was presto, cp3 was minotaur
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oh four Well it was using c p p,
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which was the Central European,
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but they had different protocols
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like one was ATX,
but they weren't compatible.
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So like Minotaur was
I think number three, CBT was like
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the Central European whatever.
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But then they, but they were
the ones that worked out like,
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oh, these are the four
or five like different types.
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And you can if you're starting a new one,
you should pick one of these to go with.
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But they weren't compatible
between each other I think.
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Yeah.
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Yeah that's, that's, that's interesting
as well because like in this case
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you would have a different protocol,
but some of the hardware is the same
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and I guess that is very representative
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of like trade and technology
where you trade some of the hardware,
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but then you create your own software
because of either language variations
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or you just like culturally and socially,
you have different aims,
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which is quite interesting.
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Yeah, I think like
the language thing is quite interesting.
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Yeah, but then the hardware you can,
you can basically just like swap
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that around. Yeah. Yeah.
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Which is good because the later
I think you know, larger companies
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like IBM and stuff, they would
they like made their own,
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they made terminals and things
for video techs.
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Yeah and I guess they could be used across
a variety of countries.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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So yeah I mean normally gc4
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thousand and computers
were used to do this, which was like
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a hardware requirement which were commonly
used in the UK as well.
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And they actually had to be bought
or rented from the Brits. So,
242
00:13:42,154 --> 00:13:43,589
so you can kind of see the,
243
00:13:43,589 --> 00:13:47,359
like again, the political amalgamation
244
00:13:47,459 --> 00:13:50,296
here of the citizenship
245
00:13:50,296 --> 00:13:55,701
of the technology that was being built
in West Germany at the time.
246
00:13:55,701 --> 00:14:00,306
So a lot of it was British influence,
the hardware
247
00:14:00,372 --> 00:14:01,540
and I think we've
248
00:14:01,540 --> 00:14:05,544
you know, found this quite often
in our research for this for the podcast
249
00:14:05,544 --> 00:14:11,417
is that the development of kind of state
technology always had a political agenda
250
00:14:11,517 --> 00:14:16,722
and in this case the West was kind
of trying to establish itself with it
251
00:14:16,822 --> 00:14:20,559
through trade and relationships
with other states.
252
00:14:20,559 --> 00:14:26,398
And it would largely define what they mean
as a nation or what they stand for.
253
00:14:26,465 --> 00:14:27,933
What who are their friends,
254
00:14:27,933 --> 00:14:32,438
who are their allies,
what powers they kind of represent.
255
00:14:32,504 --> 00:14:37,176
And so a lot of these technology hardware
256
00:14:37,243 --> 00:14:42,281
relationships was like a collaboration
with kind of strings attached.
257
00:14:42,381 --> 00:14:44,316
Do you know if it was
258
00:14:44,316 --> 00:14:46,819
West Germany was they were the ones
259
00:14:46,819 --> 00:14:51,123
that were kind of wanting
to build a video tech service,
260
00:14:51,123 --> 00:14:56,528
or do you think
maybe it was like a discussion
261
00:14:56,595 --> 00:14:57,930
in the European countries?
262
00:14:57,930 --> 00:15:02,668
Yeah, I think it was probably instigated
by the Germans because they
263
00:15:02,701 --> 00:15:06,939
it was a great opportunity
for like an economic investment,
264
00:15:07,006 --> 00:15:12,177
more like an economic liberation
to make friends with with the UK
265
00:15:12,177 --> 00:15:18,083
and European Union and East Germany
had a kind of very clear narrative
266
00:15:18,083 --> 00:15:22,154
or trade mark on the on the opposite
side of the spectrum
267
00:15:22,154 --> 00:15:27,059
is that they very much represented
the East and the Soviets.
268
00:15:27,126 --> 00:15:30,729
So the brand was pretty obvious, but West
269
00:15:30,729 --> 00:15:34,700
Germany was still kind of finding its feet
with what they symbolized
270
00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:39,038
and who they rubbed
shoulders with specifically.
271
00:15:39,104 --> 00:15:40,773
Also just kind of coming out
272
00:15:40,773 --> 00:15:44,576
of like being a fascist state
and a Nazi state.
273
00:15:44,576 --> 00:15:49,748
And Germany had a very kind of strong
identity crisis after World War Two.
274
00:15:49,815 --> 00:15:52,618
Its economy and reputation
is completely shattered
275
00:15:52,618 --> 00:15:57,523
by the Nazi regime,
and trading with the West required
276
00:15:57,523 --> 00:16:02,528
kind of like a thoroughly like new sound
development or trust.
277
00:16:02,594 --> 00:16:05,564
And before West
278
00:16:05,564 --> 00:16:10,836
Germany could play with France
and the UK in tech development,
279
00:16:10,903 --> 00:16:15,541
they had to rely on hardware
developed within the nation
280
00:16:15,541 --> 00:16:19,645
and actually used a lot of technology
from East Germany.
281
00:16:19,812 --> 00:16:23,949
So this was like before they got before
they could like buy or rent stuff
282
00:16:23,949 --> 00:16:25,451
from the UK.
283
00:16:25,451 --> 00:16:27,987
Yeah, right. Yeah.
284
00:16:27,987 --> 00:16:31,690
And I stumbled upon
this kind of famous picture.
285
00:16:31,757 --> 00:16:33,359
Yeah. You sent rounds on Twitter?
286
00:16:33,359 --> 00:16:34,159
Yeah.
287
00:16:34,159 --> 00:16:37,196
Of women in uniformed overalls
288
00:16:37,196 --> 00:16:41,533
pulling these carts
of their little computers behind them
289
00:16:41,633 --> 00:16:44,203
during a socialist computer
290
00:16:44,203 --> 00:16:47,239
parade in East Berlin in 1907.
291
00:16:47,373 --> 00:16:50,376
It was like I thought it was a parade
that was just like
292
00:16:50,376 --> 00:16:53,379
various things, that the whole parade
was a computer parade.
293
00:16:53,479 --> 00:16:53,979
Oh, no.
294
00:16:53,979 --> 00:16:56,482
I think this was just like
the computer section of the parade.
295
00:16:56,482 --> 00:16:57,149
Oh, yeah.
296
00:16:57,149 --> 00:16:59,184
So it's like it was like we should
297
00:16:59,184 --> 00:17:03,689
Maybe that's something
we should do to get a parade.
298
00:17:03,756 --> 00:17:04,189
Yeah, No,
299
00:17:04,189 --> 00:17:10,162
I think it's just like a nation parade of,
like, here's what we did as a state.
300
00:17:10,262 --> 00:17:11,730
And these
301
00:17:11,730 --> 00:17:17,736
computers were, I think p c 1715 built
302
00:17:17,803 --> 00:17:23,208
with GDR technology,
and there's a CPU called the U.
303
00:17:23,208 --> 00:17:27,079
880, which is a Z 80 clone.
304
00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:31,216
This is what I read in the comments,
but also some West German
305
00:17:31,316 --> 00:17:34,319
and Soviet Union chips were running on
306
00:17:34,486 --> 00:17:37,489
operating system called C.P.
307
00:17:37,556 --> 00:17:40,559
So what was common
at the time in the eighties was that
308
00:17:40,659 --> 00:17:44,930
the Soviets made a lot of the hardware
in their factories and sold
309
00:17:44,930 --> 00:17:50,569
or traded them with the West,
who would then make their own digital
310
00:17:50,569 --> 00:17:54,740
encoding to run experiments
and develop projects like in text.
311
00:17:54,740 --> 00:17:57,743
Guy So what was the,
312
00:17:57,743 --> 00:18:00,579
do you know, like what the kind of
313
00:18:00,579 --> 00:18:04,283
trade relationship
was like between East and West Germany?
314
00:18:04,316 --> 00:18:05,818
Like around this time? Yeah.
315
00:18:05,818 --> 00:18:10,022
So it started off as absolutely no trade.
316
00:18:10,089 --> 00:18:13,559
There were embargoes
and there were bans on trade.
317
00:18:13,625 --> 00:18:18,297
But towards the eighties
I mean, so, so it all fell down.
318
00:18:18,297 --> 00:18:22,167
And in the nineties and in the eighties
especially, you know, mid to late
319
00:18:22,167 --> 00:18:27,439
eighties, things were starting
to be a little bit lawless
320
00:18:27,439 --> 00:18:32,444
and there was some illegal activity
in terms of trade.
321
00:18:32,644 --> 00:18:36,482
The east was just falling apart.
322
00:18:36,548 --> 00:18:40,352
So there was a little bit
more like liberal trade
323
00:18:40,352 --> 00:18:44,790
and the relationship was a little bit
more liberal in the eighties.
324
00:18:44,857 --> 00:18:47,192
But yeah,
I mean, purchases in the east of higher
325
00:18:47,192 --> 00:18:50,429
technologies from the west
were under various embargoes,
326
00:18:50,429 --> 00:18:54,166
which then became a little bit
more liberated over time.
327
00:18:54,266 --> 00:18:56,668
And with also the gradual
328
00:18:56,668 --> 00:19:02,040
waning of like Soviet power In the late
1980s, the Communist Party in East
329
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,911
Germany began
to lose its grip on power and actually,
330
00:19:05,911 --> 00:19:09,715
you know, tens of thousands
of East Germans began to flee the nation.
331
00:19:09,715 --> 00:19:11,450
And by the late
332
00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:12,084
by late
333
00:19:12,084 --> 00:19:16,755
1989,
the Berlin Wall started to come down.
334
00:19:16,855 --> 00:19:20,993
The Soviets were set
on producing their own tech.
335
00:19:20,993 --> 00:19:26,231
But the main chips that were produced in
the GDR were more expensive
336
00:19:26,398 --> 00:19:30,169
in production than its Japanese
or American counterparts.
337
00:19:30,169 --> 00:19:35,207
Because of these,
you know, very strict trading policies.
338
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,777
And some parts were imported from the West
339
00:19:38,777 --> 00:19:42,247
with high currency
exchange rates from the from West Germany.
340
00:19:42,281 --> 00:19:44,783
Yeah, from exactly.
341
00:19:44,783 --> 00:19:48,887
And were sometimes traded
illegally kind of circumventing
342
00:19:48,887 --> 00:19:52,858
these tech embargoes bans on trade
343
00:19:52,925 --> 00:19:55,527
between the COCOM,
344
00:19:55,527 --> 00:19:58,530
which is the economic organization between
345
00:19:58,530 --> 00:20:01,233
the two countries of the Eastern bloc.
346
00:20:01,233 --> 00:20:05,103
So the kind of like illegal trading was
would that have been
347
00:20:05,103 --> 00:20:08,106
from independent actors
within the government?
348
00:20:08,273 --> 00:20:12,945
Yeah, it must have all just been
independent people
349
00:20:13,045 --> 00:20:15,614
and I actually told my German friend
about this.
350
00:20:15,614 --> 00:20:19,751
We had a conversation about the technology
that she was growing up with
351
00:20:19,751 --> 00:20:21,520
because she grew up in East Germany.
352
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,190
I mean, this was after the wall fell down,
but there's still
353
00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:30,262
some remnants
of that culturally and economically. And
354
00:20:30,362 --> 00:20:31,797
she said that,
355
00:20:31,797 --> 00:20:34,700
you know, of course,
even playing on old computers
356
00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:38,637
when she was growing up in late
nineties, Germany, you could easily
357
00:20:38,637 --> 00:20:42,507
distinguish like Soviet keyboards
to more Western ones.
358
00:20:42,574 --> 00:20:45,410
Did she say why or how? I don't know.
359
00:20:45,410 --> 00:20:50,816
I think she has a very good understanding
of like Soviet esthetic.
360
00:20:50,849 --> 00:20:53,785
I'm like, compared to different fonts.
361
00:20:53,785 --> 00:20:57,956
Yeah, different forms and yeah,
I don't know,
362
00:20:57,990 --> 00:21:02,894
maybe she was just,
just chatting ship them.
363
00:21:02,995 --> 00:21:06,465
But I think I think also maybe she related
364
00:21:06,465 --> 00:21:09,768
like nostalgic old
365
00:21:09,868 --> 00:21:13,438
pieces of tech to Eastern tech,
366
00:21:13,505 --> 00:21:16,475
which is not necessarily true,
367
00:21:16,475 --> 00:21:19,311
but it's interesting
to think about like the, the esthetics
368
00:21:19,311 --> 00:21:23,315
of the tech that we use, the computers
and things like that,
369
00:21:23,382 --> 00:21:26,151
like how we got to the point
where we're at now.
370
00:21:26,151 --> 00:21:30,789
Like I'm looking at my Apple keyboard and,
you know, like everything's built
371
00:21:30,789 --> 00:21:36,328
on what came before,
but there were other tech worlds
372
00:21:36,395 --> 00:21:40,732
that didn't necessarily
get to the point that we're at now
373
00:21:40,832 --> 00:21:44,770
that had a different esthetic esthetic
for our computers.
374
00:21:44,870 --> 00:21:50,642
It's interesting to think about
how we related also to socialist projects
375
00:21:50,642 --> 00:21:56,114
and the the esthetic of socialism,
because if we even look at like
376
00:21:56,214 --> 00:22:01,353
Minato or the Syverson Ops room or OG.
377
00:22:01,353 --> 00:22:02,821
Yes. Yeah.
378
00:22:02,821 --> 00:22:06,858
We make a very quick conclusion
to think that
379
00:22:07,059 --> 00:22:12,464
just because something looks socialist,
it's it's because it looks old,
380
00:22:12,564 --> 00:22:14,733
especially when we're thinking about tech.
381
00:22:14,733 --> 00:22:15,033
Yeah.
382
00:22:15,033 --> 00:22:18,036
And I guess there's like different eras
383
00:22:18,203 --> 00:22:21,506
of tech esthetics, even like,
384
00:22:21,573 --> 00:22:23,842
you know, the twins like,
385
00:22:23,842 --> 00:22:27,145
clear see through Macintoshes
386
00:22:27,179 --> 00:22:31,983
and the that I really associate
with like a sudden cultural
387
00:22:32,050 --> 00:22:35,687
era that very much it's like very much
connected to the United States
388
00:22:35,687 --> 00:22:39,224
and yeah, and the invention
of transparent design as well,
389
00:22:39,224 --> 00:22:42,327
which was more of like
an interface design choice,
390
00:22:42,327 --> 00:22:46,131
but that was invented
in the States for Apple.
391
00:22:46,298 --> 00:22:50,902
And I think very much like represents
the idea of neoliberalism.
392
00:22:51,002 --> 00:22:55,474
But we can get into that on a different
Yeah, I mean yeah, so I have haven't
393
00:22:55,674 --> 00:22:59,044
I was thinking the other day
about how like I miss being able
394
00:22:59,044 --> 00:23:03,482
to look inside
as like an esthetic of computers,
395
00:23:03,482 --> 00:23:07,319
like I had a computer,
like a PC growing up.
396
00:23:07,319 --> 00:23:10,722
And I'm pretty sure
at least one iteration of it
397
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:16,862
had like a clear side to the tower
398
00:23:16,928 --> 00:23:19,831
and it had like rainbow lights inside.
399
00:23:19,831 --> 00:23:23,635
So you could like see inside of those
like a fan and stuff like that.
400
00:23:23,635 --> 00:23:25,670
And I remember thinking
it was the coolest.
401
00:23:25,670 --> 00:23:28,373
Oh, that is so cool.
You have to look inside.
402
00:23:28,373 --> 00:23:32,778
But now everything's like closed off
and Apple have their own,
403
00:23:32,778 --> 00:23:37,382
like proprietary screws,
you know, things like that.
404
00:23:37,549 --> 00:23:38,650
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.
405
00:23:38,650 --> 00:23:41,653
Like the actual dismantling of it
is very impenetrable.
406
00:23:41,686 --> 00:23:44,222
Mm hmm. Like light up shoes,
but like a light up.
407
00:23:44,222 --> 00:23:45,457
Yeah. Yeah, pretty much.
408
00:23:45,457 --> 00:23:46,825
Is that the same vibe?
409
00:23:46,825 --> 00:23:49,294
Yeah.
410
00:23:49,294 --> 00:23:53,432
But I also want to say that,
you know, Belgium texts
411
00:23:53,432 --> 00:23:58,203
was so kind of of its time, not just via
the political history, but also.
412
00:23:58,203 --> 00:24:01,573
Yeah, it's its esthetic and we always
413
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,643
relate the 32 bit imagery
414
00:24:04,643 --> 00:24:08,980
to the eighties and Belgium
text has a lot to do with that.
415
00:24:09,047 --> 00:24:11,349
Is that is it video text
416
00:24:11,349 --> 00:24:15,020
or is it Belgian text
specifically I guess is video text.
417
00:24:15,020 --> 00:24:16,321
Yeah, you're right.
418
00:24:16,321 --> 00:24:16,688
Yeah.
419
00:24:16,688 --> 00:24:21,259
It used the standard video text
profile called CP T,
420
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:26,631
which displays graphics by a 480,
421
00:24:26,631 --> 00:24:29,634
I think by 250 pixel resolution
422
00:24:29,835 --> 00:24:32,671
where there is only 32 colors
423
00:24:32,671 --> 00:24:36,041
kind of could be shown at the same time
424
00:24:36,107 --> 00:24:39,711
out of a palette of about 4000
425
00:24:39,811 --> 00:24:43,148
and Oh yeah, and I wonder
426
00:24:43,215 --> 00:24:46,017
what these like 4000 colors were
427
00:24:46,017 --> 00:24:50,655
and how they have translated
to our understanding of what
428
00:24:50,655 --> 00:24:54,860
the eighties looked like because 4000
is still not really that many.
429
00:24:54,860 --> 00:24:58,129
Like,
that's quite a pixelated color wheel.
430
00:24:58,230 --> 00:24:59,898
I feel like these 4000
431
00:24:59,898 --> 00:25:03,869
colors that they chose
I think is kind of established.
432
00:25:03,902 --> 00:25:08,740
Our idea of like eighties products
and eighties tech and maybe that's
433
00:25:08,740 --> 00:25:14,012
how eighties are still visualized
in movies and culture.
434
00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:18,750
I'm also thinking about like the era
when gradients were really in
435
00:25:18,817 --> 00:25:23,722
and I'm like, well, maybe that's
because suddenly we had like a jump in.
436
00:25:23,822 --> 00:25:25,891
Yeah, in the amount of pixels that. Yeah.
437
00:25:25,891 --> 00:25:28,527
And so suddenly
you could have like a smooth gradient.
438
00:25:28,527 --> 00:25:29,895
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
439
00:25:29,895 --> 00:25:32,864
Because all of this,
all of this information
440
00:25:32,864 --> 00:25:37,035
about what we have of
the past is translated through screens,
441
00:25:37,035 --> 00:25:40,472
it's translated through movies,
TV shows and games.
442
00:25:40,539 --> 00:25:44,643
Yeah, there's just something quite
interesting about what colors were used
443
00:25:44,643 --> 00:25:47,746
and how that was then
translated over time, through screens
444
00:25:47,746 --> 00:25:51,449
and through the choice
of how many pixels were allowed to use.
445
00:25:51,516 --> 00:25:51,816
Yeah.
446
00:25:51,816 --> 00:25:54,853
And like how that affects other things
447
00:25:54,853 --> 00:25:58,423
like fashion, makeup and all the,
448
00:25:58,490 --> 00:26:03,662
all the sort of cultural indicators,
cultural things that going on at the time.
449
00:26:03,728 --> 00:26:04,529
Yeah.
450
00:26:04,529 --> 00:26:07,232
So boutiques had been made
451
00:26:07,232 --> 00:26:11,002
obsolete by the Internet
at the end of 2001.
452
00:26:11,002 --> 00:26:14,005
It was still running until that time.
453
00:26:14,239 --> 00:26:16,341
It's kind of
454
00:26:16,441 --> 00:26:19,277
I know before
455
00:26:19,277 --> 00:26:22,380
it was shut down by Deutsche Telekom,
456
00:26:22,380 --> 00:26:26,484
which is German T
Mobile and Telecom is spelled with a K.
457
00:26:26,484 --> 00:26:28,687
Yeah, I love it.
458
00:26:28,687 --> 00:26:34,326
I know it's yeah, it was done by them,
even though it formed the basis
459
00:26:34,326 --> 00:26:39,831
of the Deutsche Telekom online service,
which maintained a BT interface
460
00:26:39,831 --> 00:26:43,868
even after 1995
when the brand was first introduced.
461
00:26:43,868 --> 00:26:47,772
So actually
the interface was pretty old school.
462
00:26:47,839 --> 00:26:50,141
And this is crazy to me
463
00:26:50,141 --> 00:26:54,713
because my first ever phone was a T
mobile phone.
464
00:26:54,813 --> 00:26:56,081
Is this in Germany?
465
00:26:56,081 --> 00:26:58,183
Oh, it's in Czech Republic, Yeah.
466
00:26:58,183 --> 00:27:01,052
So close by
they would have used the same stuff.
467
00:27:01,052 --> 00:27:06,625
And I remember it was like a blue squarish
flip phone with a little antenna
468
00:27:06,625 --> 00:27:12,964
and a dark green background
with massive pixels pop probably 32 bit.
469
00:27:12,964 --> 00:27:17,235
Now that I think about it,
and it could only display
470
00:27:17,235 --> 00:27:20,405
green and black
and it had the snake game on it.
471
00:27:20,472 --> 00:27:23,141
I miss the snake.
472
00:27:23,141 --> 00:27:25,377
R.I.P. Snake game Snake.
473
00:27:25,377 --> 00:27:29,214
I love this V so many light
game apps that are doing game,
474
00:27:29,214 --> 00:27:31,983
but it's not the static snake. It's
not the same.
475
00:27:31,983 --> 00:27:33,918
It's going to be like on your phone.
476
00:27:33,918 --> 00:27:36,721
You have to be on the panel.
477
00:27:36,721 --> 00:27:38,056
I can still.
478
00:27:38,056 --> 00:27:43,128
My mom had snake on a phone before
I had a phone and it was like a Nokia.
479
00:27:43,328 --> 00:27:47,132
Yeah, it was like not the flip
phone is like before the flip phone.
480
00:27:47,365 --> 00:27:52,937
And I remember the buttons being these
like rubbery and the fear I have.
481
00:27:52,937 --> 00:27:56,274
Like I really remember
like the feeling of, like pressing down
482
00:27:56,274 --> 00:27:59,444
on the buttons,
playing snake and trying to.
483
00:27:59,544 --> 00:28:03,348
I feel like it's not even a digital game.
484
00:28:03,348 --> 00:28:05,383
It's a physical game.
485
00:28:05,383 --> 00:28:08,319
It's almost like a game that you hold
486
00:28:08,319 --> 00:28:11,322
and you have to like, get the little,
487
00:28:11,423 --> 00:28:16,995
the the hoop over the hook,
you know, those little handheld games,
488
00:28:17,128 --> 00:28:21,900
like get the little ball bearings
into certain holes and yeah, yeah, yeah.
489
00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:25,837
That usually kind of the friction
of the button pressing too.
490
00:28:25,837 --> 00:28:26,304
Yeah.
491
00:28:26,304 --> 00:28:30,108
And it like pushes the Yeah, yeah.
492
00:28:30,308 --> 00:28:32,811
There was like a few different sorts.
493
00:28:32,811 --> 00:28:33,978
That's so cool.
494
00:28:33,978 --> 00:28:38,116
We should do an episode about
like what about those game games.
495
00:28:38,116 --> 00:28:38,416
Yeah.
496
00:28:38,416 --> 00:28:42,420
And how they translated
from being you press
497
00:28:42,420 --> 00:28:45,724
something to make something
physical happen to.
498
00:28:45,790 --> 00:28:48,593
Yeah.
The digital implementation of buttons.
499
00:28:48,593 --> 00:28:50,595
I did watch this like old movie recently.
500
00:28:50,595 --> 00:28:51,963
I can't remember which one it was.
501
00:28:51,963 --> 00:28:54,332
I can like find it,
put it in the show notes or something.
502
00:28:54,332 --> 00:28:59,404
But there was a,
there was a character like a brooding guy.
503
00:28:59,471 --> 00:29:03,842
I think it was Anwar,
and he he had carried with him everywhere
504
00:29:04,109 --> 00:29:07,045
like a little one of those little games,
but not one with buttons
505
00:29:07,045 --> 00:29:09,114
like one
that you have to kind of have flat.
506
00:29:09,114 --> 00:29:11,483
And then you're trying
to get the ball bearings into the holes.
507
00:29:11,483 --> 00:29:15,820
And I think it was baseball
related in some way, but
508
00:29:15,887 --> 00:29:18,990
it was almost like
instead of a mobile phone, like he'd
509
00:29:18,990 --> 00:29:22,660
just be like waiting somewhere and he'd
pull it out and like, play with it
510
00:29:22,761 --> 00:29:26,464
and then do these weird
kind of movements with his body, Right?
511
00:29:26,498 --> 00:29:26,865
Yeah.
512
00:29:26,865 --> 00:29:31,002
Well, it was more yeah, I think like the
camera, like, just zoomed in on the game.
513
00:29:31,069 --> 00:29:31,536
Okay.
514
00:29:31,536 --> 00:29:34,506
It would show him using it,
but it kind of.
515
00:29:34,506 --> 00:29:35,373
Yeah, I suppose.
516
00:29:35,373 --> 00:29:38,910
Like the phone replaced. Yeah. And now.
517
00:29:38,910 --> 00:29:44,916
But now you have the sensory trackers
in your phone and you have motion trackers
518
00:29:44,916 --> 00:29:50,088
and you have GPS trackers
that actually make you now do this
519
00:29:50,188 --> 00:29:54,459
physical simulation
that is supposed to reflect
520
00:29:54,459 --> 00:30:00,031
something in the game, but you're doing
it with your body at home,
521
00:30:00,098 --> 00:30:02,167
which is very weird.
522
00:30:02,167 --> 00:30:05,770
I read something about how,
you know, everyone now is like,
523
00:30:05,870 --> 00:30:08,139
oh, you know,
people like looking down at their phones
524
00:30:08,139 --> 00:30:11,142
and walking around and like,
not looking up or whatever.
525
00:30:11,342 --> 00:30:14,279
But I did read something a while ago
about how ages ago
526
00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:18,483
there was like a craze in kaleidoscopes.
527
00:30:18,550 --> 00:30:21,152
You know, those things that
you look through and you can like, Yeah.
528
00:30:21,152 --> 00:30:23,488
And there's like sparkles inside and stuff
and it makes like
529
00:30:23,488 --> 00:30:24,756
you're looking at all weird.
530
00:30:24,756 --> 00:30:28,626
And apparently whenever
this was, people would like, walk around
531
00:30:28,693 --> 00:30:32,463
and like looking in them and crash in to
pay for anything and they kaleidoscopes.
532
00:30:32,463 --> 00:30:36,301
And there was like articles like this is a
533
00:30:36,367 --> 00:30:38,603
recorder, you know. Yeah.
534
00:30:38,603 --> 00:30:40,505
When was this right. Let me look it up.
535
00:30:40,505 --> 00:30:45,243
It was invented in 1816
and I think it became a thing
536
00:30:45,243 --> 00:30:48,780
just like after that,
like early, early 19th century.
537
00:30:48,980 --> 00:30:49,414
Yeah.
538
00:30:49,414 --> 00:30:53,051
The first consumable technology.
539
00:30:53,151 --> 00:30:55,820
But I think,
I think that it just sort of shows
540
00:30:55,820 --> 00:31:00,992
that a lot of the things
that we think about, about phones or that,
541
00:31:01,059 --> 00:31:03,661
you know, it's like,
oh, they're time wasters or,
542
00:31:03,661 --> 00:31:07,532
you know, we're just like scrolling
or we're on them all the time.
543
00:31:07,532 --> 00:31:09,634
We don't look up.
544
00:31:09,701 --> 00:31:10,201
I think a
545
00:31:10,201 --> 00:31:13,304
lot of that actually
is just replacing other shit that we.
546
00:31:13,304 --> 00:31:13,838
Yeah, yeah.
547
00:31:13,838 --> 00:31:16,140
I never use like to waste time.
548
00:31:16,140 --> 00:31:17,709
It's fine to be. Yeah.
549
00:31:17,709 --> 00:31:20,278
You don't have to be productive
and working all the time.
550
00:31:20,278 --> 00:31:23,281
I mean, sure, if you bump into people,
like that's kind of annoying,
551
00:31:23,548 --> 00:31:27,418
but even the stuff that's bad,
like if you think of being addicted
552
00:31:27,418 --> 00:31:29,420
to scrolling or whatever, like,
553
00:31:29,420 --> 00:31:33,124
I'm sure there were random things
that people were doing, like little pocket
554
00:31:33,124 --> 00:31:38,296
devices and stuff like games and things,
books, even books or reading.
555
00:31:38,396 --> 00:31:41,399
I know or I'm addicted to read,
556
00:31:41,432 --> 00:31:45,236
but yeah, that like a lot of it
is just human nature.
557
00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:48,506
And yeah, you know, at the moment the tool
558
00:31:48,506 --> 00:31:52,911
that is mainstream for
that is a phone is a phone.
559
00:31:53,011 --> 00:31:57,148
But for years we did the same stuff
with whatever it was.
560
00:31:57,148 --> 00:32:00,118
It had. Yeah,
we're just distracted creatures.
561
00:32:00,118 --> 00:32:01,853
We just need,
562
00:32:01,953 --> 00:32:06,257
we just need to be constantly amused.
563
00:32:06,357 --> 00:32:06,658
Yeah.
564
00:32:06,658 --> 00:32:09,928
I mean, like going back to this interface
development,
565
00:32:10,061 --> 00:32:13,464
which was still in the mid to late
566
00:32:13,464 --> 00:32:17,201
nineties, it was still using eighties
567
00:32:17,268 --> 00:32:20,271
video text interface, but through Btecs
568
00:32:20,471 --> 00:32:24,242
it's kind of crazy to think about
because this phone
569
00:32:24,242 --> 00:32:28,246
that I was using to think
that I was essentially using parts of BTEC
570
00:32:28,413 --> 00:32:31,616
technology is is just wild to me
571
00:32:31,683 --> 00:32:34,686
and it obviously makes me feel really old.
572
00:32:34,786 --> 00:32:37,522
But at the same time
it's, it's fun to think about how
573
00:32:37,522 --> 00:32:41,125
you can spot little visual
snippets of kind of tech evolution
574
00:32:41,125 --> 00:32:44,662
in products that you're using now
and that you used to use as a kid.
575
00:32:44,896 --> 00:32:48,533
I think that we're living through
a really particular
576
00:32:48,533 --> 00:32:52,136
moment in history
where like we still have access
577
00:32:52,203 --> 00:32:56,874
to a lot of the people
that started the whole computer thing.
578
00:32:56,941 --> 00:32:59,143
And you and I, like
579
00:32:59,143 --> 00:33:02,914
you're a little younger than me,
but I think we're both
580
00:33:02,914 --> 00:33:06,050
sort of of the generation
that didn't have Internet.
581
00:33:06,050 --> 00:33:10,221
And then did, you know, even
just like the shift from a Nokia
582
00:33:10,221 --> 00:33:14,692
flip phone to an iPhone to a smartphone
was ridiculous.
583
00:33:14,692 --> 00:33:14,959
Yeah.
584
00:33:14,959 --> 00:33:18,529
And it's kind of cool
to be living through that
585
00:33:18,529 --> 00:33:24,802
and to be able to notice and experience
the way things kind of evolve.
586
00:33:24,902 --> 00:33:25,770
Yeah, Yeah.
587
00:33:25,770 --> 00:33:29,574
I think our phones are really good
588
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,743
tracking of that
589
00:33:31,743 --> 00:33:35,513
because they were around for a long time
and they changed a lot.
590
00:33:35,513 --> 00:33:40,685
And with the introduction of the iPhone
that then spewed
591
00:33:40,685 --> 00:33:43,688
into the product
592
00:33:43,821 --> 00:33:46,824
launches of, of MacBook
S and different computers.
593
00:33:47,025 --> 00:33:51,295
So I think again, like what we've
really learned from some of these podcasts
594
00:33:51,295 --> 00:33:56,267
is that these phone networks
were so, so important to the development
595
00:33:56,267 --> 00:34:00,571
of computers and networks in general
and online networks like the Internet.
596
00:34:00,638 --> 00:34:03,307
But yeah, unfortunately the story of Btc's
597
00:34:03,307 --> 00:34:07,078
has a bit of a tragic
ending and reputation.
598
00:34:07,311 --> 00:34:12,083
It had serious security issues
because data was transferred
599
00:34:12,183 --> 00:34:15,820
unauthenticated and in plaintext.
600
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,423
I guess like at the time
they didn't really think about,
601
00:34:18,423 --> 00:34:20,892
they were like, Yeah, it's safe.
602
00:34:20,892 --> 00:34:23,461
Yeah,
I was saying like it was in plaintext now,
603
00:34:23,461 --> 00:34:26,397
but I'm not sure
if there was like another option.
604
00:34:26,464 --> 00:34:28,566
True, True.
605
00:34:28,566 --> 00:34:29,000
Yeah.
606
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,504
I mean, it led to the the Btc's hack
607
00:34:33,571 --> 00:34:38,142
by Wow Holland in 1984,
608
00:34:38,242 --> 00:34:43,748
which was not that long ago
after its launch. No,
609
00:34:43,815 --> 00:34:48,219
it's a very well known case
in computer science kind of folklore.
610
00:34:48,352 --> 00:34:51,522
But yeah, so while Holland
611
00:34:51,522 --> 00:34:55,059
was part of the chaos
Computer Club, the key.
612
00:34:55,259 --> 00:34:56,794
That's a great name.
613
00:34:56,794 --> 00:34:57,095
Yeah.
614
00:34:57,095 --> 00:35:00,098
If I had a club, I'd be like, It's chaos.
615
00:35:00,198 --> 00:35:04,102
And it's also like organized crime
where chaotic.
616
00:35:04,102 --> 00:35:08,906
But we're also a club and we're really
and this is the secretary and this is
617
00:35:08,973 --> 00:35:10,708
and just by chance we have a name
618
00:35:10,708 --> 00:35:13,711
that is also
has a lot of alliteration in it.
619
00:35:13,711 --> 00:35:14,712
Yeah.
620
00:35:14,712 --> 00:35:18,349
Good for logos Yeah.
621
00:35:18,449 --> 00:35:20,218
And so this yeah
622
00:35:20,218 --> 00:35:23,955
that club was founded
in the early eighties
623
00:35:23,955 --> 00:35:28,426
and it was very popular between German
speaking communities is
624
00:35:28,526 --> 00:35:34,832
I think it was made up of 7700 members
and it's apparently Europe's largest
625
00:35:34,832 --> 00:35:40,004
association of hackers and essentially
became famous because of the BTCS hack.
626
00:35:40,238 --> 00:35:45,276
So the ATX hack caused the system to debit
627
00:35:45,476 --> 00:35:49,480
134,000 Deutschmark,
628
00:35:49,580 --> 00:35:53,384
which would be about 70 to 80000 U.S.
629
00:35:53,384 --> 00:35:53,818
dollars.
630
00:35:53,818 --> 00:35:57,188
Today in a bank in Hamburg.
631
00:35:57,255 --> 00:36:02,026
And the money was returned
the next day in front of the press,
632
00:36:02,126 --> 00:36:04,996
which the club must have set up
633
00:36:04,996 --> 00:36:08,299
because there were very public
and open about this hack.
634
00:36:08,399 --> 00:36:09,767
Well, I guess they're trying.
635
00:36:09,767 --> 00:36:11,836
They were worried that they realized
636
00:36:11,836 --> 00:36:14,839
that the system
was really easily hackable. Yes.
637
00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:15,673
And they wanted
638
00:36:15,673 --> 00:36:17,508
I guess the government
wasn't doing anything about it
639
00:36:17,508 --> 00:36:19,944
and they wanted to actually make it
obvious.
640
00:36:19,944 --> 00:36:25,650
The ATX could have also caused
a lot of individual issues as well.
641
00:36:25,650 --> 00:36:29,520
Like I don't think
it was a completely bulletproof interface
642
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,991
and system and I can imagine
people were quite annoyed by it sometimes.
643
00:36:33,991 --> 00:36:36,994
And so these hackers
644
00:36:37,128 --> 00:36:41,065
kind of made this plan to steal the money
and then give it back
645
00:36:41,065 --> 00:36:46,404
and not be imprisoned and just kind of
make a public statement about it.
646
00:36:46,470 --> 00:36:51,108
There's even we even watch some YouTube
videos earlier of the hackers
647
00:36:51,108 --> 00:36:54,111
like speaking very openly about the hack
648
00:36:54,111 --> 00:36:56,948
to a German interviewer.
649
00:36:56,948 --> 00:37:00,051
And they were quite pompous in talking
650
00:37:00,051 --> 00:37:05,323
about how unsafe it was
and how terrible the system was.
651
00:37:05,389 --> 00:37:11,429
The CDC completely debunked the assumption
that the BTCC system
652
00:37:11,429 --> 00:37:14,665
was safe to use for the public,
even though it was
653
00:37:14,665 --> 00:37:18,603
the biggest commercially available
online system at the time.
654
00:37:18,669 --> 00:37:21,939
And it was run and heavily
advertised by the West
655
00:37:21,939 --> 00:37:25,476
German Telecommunications
Agency and Postal Service,
656
00:37:25,543 --> 00:37:31,515
which also strove to keep up to date
alternatives out of the market.
657
00:37:31,616 --> 00:37:32,984
Oh, wow. Okay.
658
00:37:32,984 --> 00:37:35,353
So there were like other options
and they're like,
659
00:37:35,353 --> 00:37:37,955
no, this is someone with a little money
into it.
660
00:37:37,955 --> 00:37:41,892
So again, because they developed it, Yeah,
661
00:37:41,993 --> 00:37:45,329
so much for Western structures
of, you know, a rigid
662
00:37:45,329 --> 00:37:50,368
freedom of information
just didn't didn't work very well.
663
00:37:50,368 --> 00:37:55,339
And also a little ironic
because it was btcs was yeah,
664
00:37:55,373 --> 00:37:58,409
like we said earlier,
very much a statement of the time
665
00:37:58,409 --> 00:38:01,679
that's West Germany
inventing new technology,
666
00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:05,916
aligning itself to Western counterparts
that were making their own technology
667
00:38:05,916 --> 00:38:10,855
and using CPE and monitor
and liberating society.
668
00:38:10,855 --> 00:38:15,459
Yeah, I think it was very embarrassing
when this hack happened.
669
00:38:15,459 --> 00:38:21,065
Politically, I feel like this hack,
like a hack like this could have happened
670
00:38:21,265 --> 00:38:25,636
probably in any country
that had a video text service
671
00:38:25,736 --> 00:38:28,739
that it's,
I don't know, sort of interesting to like
672
00:38:28,973 --> 00:38:31,542
think about it
within the context of everything
673
00:38:31,542 --> 00:38:35,946
you've said about in the political history
of Germany and West Germany
674
00:38:36,013 --> 00:38:36,480
and that
675
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,483
sort of, I guess, the video tech system.
676
00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:40,017
Yeah.
677
00:38:40,017 --> 00:38:43,220
Was this like striving to align
678
00:38:43,387 --> 00:38:49,160
with Western Europe and yeah, that it's
being kind of dissected a little bit
679
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,663
more or kind of critiqued or questioned
680
00:38:52,863 --> 00:38:56,200
by individuals by how high the club. Yeah.
681
00:38:56,300 --> 00:38:58,602
By communities know for sure.
682
00:38:58,602 --> 00:39:02,740
And they really made it clear
683
00:39:02,740 --> 00:39:07,645
that they thought
it was a really bad system.
684
00:39:07,712 --> 00:39:13,617
The fact that they really underscored
this was because there was this disbelief
685
00:39:13,617 --> 00:39:17,588
in the political system, I think as well,
a little bit in West Germany,
686
00:39:17,655 --> 00:39:17,988
you know,
687
00:39:17,988 --> 00:39:21,959
there was a divide and West Germany was
more liberal and it was better than East,
688
00:39:22,193 --> 00:39:26,530
but there were still people that there are
still issues in the system and people
689
00:39:26,530 --> 00:39:31,235
that were disheartened by the divide
and by the fact that maybe even West
690
00:39:31,235 --> 00:39:35,005
Germany wasn't doing enough
then I think it was very much symbolized.
691
00:39:35,005 --> 00:39:38,008
And in some of the anarchistic views
692
00:39:38,008 --> 00:39:41,011
of like the Chaos Computer Club
and the hackers.
693
00:39:41,011 --> 00:39:45,649
And so I think it was a bit of a
would say political statement as well.
694
00:39:45,816 --> 00:39:49,553
I think the the Cass Computer Club
is quite interesting because
695
00:39:49,620 --> 00:39:53,657
they did a lot of hacks, but there were
also like related to a lot of financial
696
00:39:53,657 --> 00:39:59,130
tool hacks of of systems that weren't
secure with moving money around.
697
00:39:59,196 --> 00:40:01,699
And the fact that that happened again
in the eighties
698
00:40:01,699 --> 00:40:07,071
when the East was so deprived
and in so much poverty and money was truly
699
00:40:07,071 --> 00:40:12,243
it was so was such an issue for the East
that it was almost like,
700
00:40:12,376 --> 00:40:16,580
I think, a sense of to the Germans
in the West to be like
701
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,984
the Deutsche Bank
is just moving money around so freely.
702
00:40:19,984 --> 00:40:24,755
And it's so, it's
so kind of liberal in its transferring
703
00:40:24,955 --> 00:40:28,759
juxtaposed to the poverty
that's happening in the East.
704
00:40:28,759 --> 00:40:33,097
I think it was quite emotionally charged
because again, like a lot of people
705
00:40:33,097 --> 00:40:37,435
would have family and friends
in the East and the West and
706
00:40:37,501 --> 00:40:42,139
socially the divide was terrible
for the Deutsche Bank
707
00:40:42,139 --> 00:40:45,910
just handled it in such a carefree way
and say like,
708
00:40:45,910 --> 00:40:48,913
yeah, that sort of interaction,
the East west interaction,
709
00:40:49,113 --> 00:40:52,817
given that the tech originally
was coming from the East.
710
00:40:52,917 --> 00:40:54,185
Yeah, yeah.
711
00:40:54,185 --> 00:40:54,718
And that there
712
00:40:54,718 --> 00:40:58,656
was a kind of hidden collaboration there
and that it was just mishandled.
713
00:40:58,722 --> 00:41:01,392
Yeah. Anyway, thanks for this. Great.
714
00:41:01,392 --> 00:41:05,329
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for listening. Yeah,
715
00:41:05,429 --> 00:41:07,698
I guess we're going to go explore London.
716
00:41:07,698 --> 00:41:09,099
I'm going to open the door,
717
00:41:09,099 --> 00:41:12,403
and then you open your door
and then we'll be in the hallway together.
718
00:41:12,503 --> 00:41:15,172
We'll give each other a pat on the back.
719
00:41:15,172 --> 00:41:16,707
Is it handshake?
720
00:41:16,707 --> 00:41:20,044
Business like handshake? Next episode.
721
00:41:20,044 --> 00:41:23,914
I know we've got a couple of
just a couple more left in this season,
722
00:41:23,914 --> 00:41:27,451
and then we're going to kind of move on
to some other interesting topics.
723
00:41:27,451 --> 00:41:31,956
So we're got to work out
what order we're going to do some things.
724
00:41:32,022 --> 00:41:36,961
Yeah, I'm here this week
largely to go to a pool tournament, so
725
00:41:37,027 --> 00:41:38,762
my teacher is playing,
726
00:41:38,762 --> 00:41:42,633
which is sort of fun, but he's German,
so maybe we can ask him.
727
00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:44,768
We can ask him about some texts.
728
00:41:44,768 --> 00:41:48,439
Yeah, I wouldn't have been around
in the eighties as well, so
729
00:41:48,606 --> 00:41:52,710
yeah, he would have said, Yeah, I'm
going to, I'm going to go up some pool now
730
00:41:52,776 --> 00:41:54,545
and enjoy London.
731
00:41:54,545 --> 00:41:55,679
Yeah, but thanks.
732
00:41:55,679 --> 00:41:55,913
Yeah.
733
00:41:55,913 --> 00:41:58,682
Thanks everyone for listening
and being here with us.
734
00:41:58,682 --> 00:42:02,152
Yes, thanks everyone. Bye bye.