Ana and Camila discuss the world’s first macintosh clone, the Mac 512 by Unitron, and how Apple threatened to start a trade war on Brasil due to their clone. Although Unitron was not doing anything wrong with the Brazilian law, Apple tried to get themselves out of financial worries and seized control of how their new hardware and software package (the first Mac) was being sold around the world. This led them to force Brasil to stop producing their Macs, and tighten up restrictions on licensing. The girls dig deeper into how such political rivalry was triggered by the problems of the US’s economic movement of financialization and the tech industry’s laissez-faire attitude of the 80s.
References
- Time, "The New Rules of Play", 1968 - https://web.archive.org/web/20071114005733/https://time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,899963,00.html
- Mac84, “The Rise and Fall of the Macintosh Clones - Part 1: The Original Apple Hackintosh”, 2021 - youtube.com/watch?v=lwMzYFEGoag, https://mac84.net/web/macintosh-clones/
- Adam Rosen, The Cult of Mac, ”Meet Unitron Mac 512: World’s First Macintosh Clone”, 2014 - https://www.cultofmac.com/266710/meet-unitron-mac-512-worlds-first-macintosh-clone/
- BrasilWire, “The 1980s Trade War between Brasil… and Apple”, 2015, https://www.brasilwire.com/the-1980s-trade-war-between-brasil-and-apple/
- Mark Fisher, “Ghosts of My Life: Writings on Depression, Hauntology and Lost Futures”, 2014
- Jecel Mattos de Assumpcao Jr, “Mac 512” - http://archive.retro.co.za/mirrors/apple/www.lsi.usp.br/~jecel/mac512.html
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Okay, we're up.
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We're recording.
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I heard that you have a little intro.
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Oh, yeah, I have an intro.
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I thought I'd try.
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So this is our friend, the computer.
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Welcome, everybody.
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If you're new here.
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So, Ana,
tell me if you think this is good.
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This is also you wrote some of this.
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And I've just changed the way
that we explore niche computer histories,
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focusing on society and politics
and alternative narratives to the popular
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US centric story around the evolution
of computers and the World Wide Web.
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That's so good.
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It's too long.
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But I feel like there's
something in there, I think.
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I mean, like,
it has to be long for it to happen.
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To have like, a proper definition.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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I feel like we could get it shorter,
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but I think that this is the closest
we've come for me, anyway.
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Mm hmm.
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I like that.
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It's just like a cipher we're trying to
solve at the beginning of every episode.
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Like,
do even introduce ourselves at this point.
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Should we introduce ourselves?
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No. Okay, I'm anonymous.
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Sick. You're anonymous.
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Anon
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Ana. Anon.
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And on and on.
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What have you been up to? How's life?
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Life's good.
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Haven't been up to much.
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Just, you know,
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dealing with general struggles
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of life and inflation here in the UK.
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Just things aren't. Things aren't great.
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Life isn't great,
but we deal with what we have.
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And it's raining today,
so I'm particularly disappointed
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in the solution.
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Exactly. I can't play football.
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I don't really want to meet up with
anyone.
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Could go to the pub.
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I'd be down for going to the pub.
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I think you've got to like have a
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have a comfy cozy time.
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Yeah.
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I was actually thinking the other day
I would be happy to move
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like I've always been that person
where I'm like, not really stuck to
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my environment
and I'm kind of happy, like moving
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or like going on a new adventure
or whatever.
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But I think I would really miss the pub,
like going to the pub and getting a pint.
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I miss living inside.
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Yeah, like year
I miss because I'm in New York.
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I miss like an Aussie pub.
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Oh, right.
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You have pubs in Australia, right?
Yeah. Like no bars.
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No, like a pub. Oh right. An app.
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You do you have Guinness
since we do have Guinness.
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Yeah. Really. Yeah.
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What best friend is about.
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It's like an old friend. Well, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Irish and English.
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Yeah.
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I mean, we have these pubs
that are kind of colonial era pubs. Mhm.
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And they have like a beer garden and
there's just a vibe and you know, like a
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some like there's like a,
you know, like there's
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this colonial vibe that I love.
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No it's, it's
just impossible to find here.
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And there's the closest you can get
is like an Irish pub
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but it's, it's not an Irish
like it's an Irish pub drinking.
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Yeah. It's just it's not the same.
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I know. I miss. I miss a pub.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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I mean, I, I just grew up like that.
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I, like, I grew up in Czech Republic,
so we would go to the hospital,
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which is basically a pub, but
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it's like it's
more of like a pub restaurant,
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canteen situation.
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And then there are Irish pubs
in like the city that like people I'm
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doctors at,
they're like the tombs and they're themed
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and they like show sports on them
and stuff like that.
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I mean, you would show sports
in a hospital too,
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but like that would
we would just go to the hospital.
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So I think that's, that's one
cultural thing that I would really miss.
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Yeah.
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Mhm. Anyway, how are you?
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I'm good. Yes.
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My mum was in town.
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I haven't seen her for like three years.
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That was nice to hang out.
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Um, but yeah, I've just been kind of
doing touristy stuff in New York City for.
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For the last little bit.
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I did want to talk.
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I saw a movie
I wanted to talk about. Oh, really?
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Which one?
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Oh, yeah, the computer accent.
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It's a documentary from.
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Do you know the Panchayat?
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No. Twice
the one of the people in yours is Claire
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Elle Evans, and she writes about tech
and she wrote that book.
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Did you read that book?
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Broadband
The Untold Story of the Women Who.
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Yeah, Internet.
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So she read.
I was reading the On the train.
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Oh, yeah.
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I used it in our last episode.
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It was one of my references.
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Um, I knew her from that stuff from,
from this podcast, this stuff.
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But she's in this band called Yacht
with with two other people.
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And they, they did an album.
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I can't remember what year they did
the album.
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It was like,
is it like a like an indie synthy?
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Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I know.
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But they made
an album entirely created with AI.
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And so this was a documentary
of the making of that album.
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Okay, so like an
or like a pre Holly Herndon indie version?
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Yeah, it was.
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I think it was 20,
I want to say 2017 or something.
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I think I like
took them a couple of years.
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So I, I went and saw it at
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Metrograph in New York
and they did a Q&A after which was cool.
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But what was interesting in the Q&A
was they were talking about how like
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the documentary really shows
this process was very like laborious.
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It was a very and they they really had to
participate a lot in the process
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of like inputting the information
and drawing out pulling out information.
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It took a lot of hours.
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But I think like soon after they
they did it and they released
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the album Better Software came out
like better capabilities happened.
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And so now this sort of thing
is a lot easier.
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But at the time they had to
I think the way they were doing it was
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they did all the sections separately.
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So like the lyrics and the melodies and
the drum beats and all that sort of stuff,
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and it was more of a,
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a collaboration with the AI.
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So the idea was that they,
they could remove things
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and they could remix stuff around
like move things around, but they couldn't
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add anything.
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They couldn't be generative,
like they as the humans involved,
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they couldn't make anything new
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and they didn't have enough.
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They didn't have enough of their own songs
for the like machine learning
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stuff.
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So they had to put in all of the melodies.
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Well, they put in all of their own stuff,
but then they put in heaps of songs
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and things from there in like other bands
that influenced them.
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That's cool.
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Yeah.
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Which I thought was kind of nice
because clearly that is
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how their how they naturally were created.
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But it was also
it did seem really annoying to do this.
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They because all of the music, they had
to turn into every track of every song.
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They had to turn into a MIDI file,
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okay to put in
and then it like spit out MIDI files.
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And that by the time that they were done
with the album, there
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was like new software.
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Well, I think they were using a
they worked with
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maybe it was Google,
it was some big O Okay.
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So they got kind of to yeah,
they got like early versions of stuff.
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Yeah.
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But what was interesting for me, like,
I thought
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it was a really great documentary
and it was fun and it was
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it was definitely a documentary
about them as a band,
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like Through the lens
of this particular album.
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And it seems like they, you know,
they're more of a creative project
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than a band, like a traditional band.
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And they look at tech
a lot like yacht stands for something
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accompanied by young adults, something,
something technology.
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Yeah, because I've seen like all caps.
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Yeah, Yeah.
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So, so there was but it was,
you know, like, yeah,
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it seems like they have these,
have other albums that also
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kind of have a concept
like the conceptual sort of albums,
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I mean, the creation,
the form of creation.
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So it was,
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it was
nice to kind of learn more about them.
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So I thought it was a very successful
documentary, but something that
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I thought was interesting
that I think you would find interesting
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is that in the film
they said at the start that the
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the kind of the reason they wanted to do
this was they wanted to learn,
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like through the air process
what it was that made a yacht song,
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like what is intrinsic about them
because they didn't really know.
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Yeah.
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So the idea, I guess
is that you put all of
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the yacht songs into the and influences.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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And then it spits out things
that they didn't
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write but,
you know, sound like a yacht song.
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So what is it that makes the yacht song?
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But it seems like
they never really got an answer to that.
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I think the pictures are very like
ephemeral.
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Abstract.
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Yeah.
Which is kind of very nice, actually.
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Yeah.
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And it was an interesting
sort of discussion around
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what is creativity or what.
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Yeah, like the identity of a band
201
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and how it's like so much more complex
than just a developer's tool kit.
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Yeah, Yeah.
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In the Q&A, someone asked
also if you have the same song
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and like exactly the same song,
and in one instance
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it's made by humans, and in one instance
it's made by a computer.
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Is there a difference in
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how you see that song?
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00:10:31,263 --> 00:10:33,633
Totally.
I mean, there wasn't really an answer.
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It was a more of a discussion. But I,
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I think so.
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I think there's a lot of bias.
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Well, for me, I think that something
that is so important
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about creativity
is the kind of human drive to create.
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And the fact that it is hard
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and that you're having to kind of work
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through your own emotions
to try and get to a point where you have
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00:11:02,128 --> 00:11:07,466
like a finished thing that connects
with other people that you believe in,
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that is lost
with when computers make things.
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And it also just kind of
if you had a really beautiful song
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and you're like, Oh,
this musician must have really felt
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this heartbreak or whatever,
and I am heartbroken so I can relate.
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And then you find out that
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it's an
224
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algorithm, even if it's just as beautiful.
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I think there is a difference.
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00:11:31,223 --> 00:11:35,795
Yeah, I don't know
if I would feel the same thing if I would,
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I would be going through heartbreak
and I'd be obsessed with this one song.
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And then I found out
that it was an algorithm at the end of it.
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I don't think my sentiments about that
song would change
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because I know
that it's already impacted me.
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But when I'm listening to a song
and I want to be impressed,
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00:11:52,511 --> 00:11:55,981
or like when I'm listening to an album
and I want to be impressed by it,
233
00:11:56,048 --> 00:11:59,485
I, I probably subconsciously
234
00:11:59,552 --> 00:12:02,755
take into a chord like the
235
00:12:02,822 --> 00:12:06,192
the time that has been the labor
that has been put in by the people.
236
00:12:06,192 --> 00:12:09,161
So it's like the
same as like if someone would
237
00:12:09,261 --> 00:12:11,230
knit a sweater for you.
238
00:12:11,230 --> 00:12:13,065
And I like
239
00:12:13,065 --> 00:12:18,504
your mom and she's taken like a month
to do it and then that and that.
240
00:12:18,504 --> 00:12:21,941
So that's different to them,
like a machine doing it in like a factory.
241
00:12:21,941 --> 00:12:25,344
And that's actually such a good analogy,
right?
242
00:12:25,344 --> 00:12:29,014
Yeah,
Let's make things for people all the time.
243
00:12:29,215 --> 00:12:34,153
But I also love
I love computers and I love automation,
244
00:12:34,220 --> 00:12:37,890
but I love also just like making stuff,
like I'm obsessed with it.
245
00:12:37,890 --> 00:12:42,194
I get completely addicted to things
like knitting.
246
00:12:42,294 --> 00:12:45,998
And and I think part of that
is because I know that, like,
247
00:12:46,065 --> 00:12:50,202
I'm doing it for someone or I'm doing it
for like this, and I like this
248
00:12:50,202 --> 00:12:55,841
feeling of beauty in that of knowing
every stitch of something.
249
00:12:55,841 --> 00:12:58,010
Yeah. Like if I'm wearing a sweater,
I need it.
250
00:12:58,010 --> 00:13:02,014
Or even,
you know, like a sewn top or something.
251
00:13:02,081 --> 00:13:04,416
It's like, Oh, I know.
252
00:13:04,416 --> 00:13:10,489
Very like,
you touched every moment of construction,
253
00:13:10,589 --> 00:13:12,792
But that's
sort of an interesting analogy too,
254
00:13:12,792 --> 00:13:16,829
because it was it you that was talking
another episode about, um,
255
00:13:16,896 --> 00:13:21,066
maybe with your Luddite interest around
256
00:13:21,133 --> 00:13:24,670
weaving machines
and that they were kind of
257
00:13:24,670 --> 00:13:28,741
early sort of computer style machines.
258
00:13:28,941 --> 00:13:29,441
Yeah.
259
00:13:29,441 --> 00:13:35,080
So that it's the Luddite movement
happened in the textile industry. Mm.
260
00:13:35,181 --> 00:13:39,485
And even like coding and looms
261
00:13:39,552 --> 00:13:43,756
are essentially made
from the same kind of like logic.
262
00:13:43,856 --> 00:13:44,924
I'll leave it at that.
263
00:13:44,924 --> 00:13:46,592
Yeah, that's right. I love it.
264
00:13:46,592 --> 00:13:50,896
But I want to get into our topic today,
which is, is your
265
00:13:50,930 --> 00:13:54,633
you're leading this one
and I'm excited about it.
266
00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:56,035
Yeah. Me too.
267
00:13:56,035 --> 00:13:59,772
Because it also kind of links
to a previous one that we that we did.
268
00:13:59,905 --> 00:14:03,209
I don't remember how we like stumbled
269
00:14:03,209 --> 00:14:06,312
upon this one, but you sent it to me
and I remember us talking.
270
00:14:06,312 --> 00:14:07,346
Yeah, we used to go.
271
00:14:07,346 --> 00:14:11,450
I started to kind of compile some topics
272
00:14:11,450 --> 00:14:15,521
around microcomputers and clones.
273
00:14:15,588 --> 00:14:16,522
It's interesting.
274
00:14:16,522 --> 00:14:22,061
I like the So we're basically talking
about how there was a lot of gray
275
00:14:22,061 --> 00:14:27,099
areas in the policies
around cloning hardware and software,
276
00:14:27,166 --> 00:14:31,203
especially when technology was rising
in the eighties
277
00:14:31,203 --> 00:14:35,841
and microchips
routers were were starting up.
278
00:14:35,841 --> 00:14:39,678
So do you want to maybe mention like what
a clone is?
279
00:14:39,812 --> 00:14:45,150
So a clone is when a software
280
00:14:45,150 --> 00:14:52,091
or hardware company,
a tech company, licenses their designs.
281
00:14:52,191 --> 00:14:55,961
So that other third party companies
can buy that license
282
00:14:56,028 --> 00:14:59,265
and buy their sort of rights
and then start producing their own
283
00:14:59,265 --> 00:15:03,269
and manufacture and fabricate
it in, let's say, other countries
284
00:15:03,269 --> 00:15:07,139
where maybe these materials
are a little cheaper.
285
00:15:07,206 --> 00:15:10,142
Cloned can happen in very legal ways.
286
00:15:10,142 --> 00:15:13,512
So like the word clone
can be a little bit like, ooh,
287
00:15:13,579 --> 00:15:16,115
Bladerunner, but it's there.
288
00:15:16,115 --> 00:15:16,982
It's very legal.
289
00:15:16,982 --> 00:15:17,983
It's a legal process.
290
00:15:17,983 --> 00:15:20,853
Well, I guess like any Blade Runner
since the beginning,
291
00:15:20,853 --> 00:15:24,323
sometimes it's hard to tell
what's a clone and what exactly.
292
00:15:24,323 --> 00:15:27,726
Yeah,
but then cloning also happened illegally.
293
00:15:27,726 --> 00:15:30,062
And this is
294
00:15:30,129 --> 00:15:31,730
kind of what this story is about.
295
00:15:31,730 --> 00:15:35,000
But again, a bit of a question mark
at the end of this episode,
296
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,304
whether this was legal or illegal.
297
00:15:38,370 --> 00:15:43,342
I think different people
have different opinions about it.
298
00:15:43,442 --> 00:15:45,544
Yeah, I think it's right
that they got into trouble.
299
00:15:45,544 --> 00:15:47,212
No. Okay.
300
00:15:47,212 --> 00:15:49,782
But anyway, I have to tell you this story.
301
00:15:49,782 --> 00:15:54,453
Well, let's take it back to 1985.
302
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:59,191
In 1985,
American capitalism was basically soaring
303
00:15:59,191 --> 00:16:03,662
because Reagan implemented, like I said,
304
00:16:03,729 --> 00:16:05,631
neoliberal policies,
305
00:16:05,631 --> 00:16:11,070
a laissez faire economic attitude
and aimed to basically stimulate
306
00:16:11,103 --> 00:16:14,940
the economy with really large tax cuts.
307
00:16:15,007 --> 00:16:18,010
He also increased military spending,
308
00:16:18,010 --> 00:16:23,082
which apparently contributed
to a near tripling of the federal debt.
309
00:16:23,182 --> 00:16:25,751
And another thing
I realized when I was researching
310
00:16:25,751 --> 00:16:29,555
this episode
is that he sent police officers and troops
311
00:16:29,555 --> 00:16:33,726
to stamp out the student demonstrations
at UC Berkeley, which was in 69.
312
00:16:33,726 --> 00:16:35,894
So this was a while ago,
but it was still when he was,
313
00:16:35,894 --> 00:16:39,565
I think, governor of California.
314
00:16:39,631 --> 00:16:41,767
And these demonstrations were
315
00:16:41,767 --> 00:16:46,538
originally organized to discuss Israel's
apartheid against Palestine.
316
00:16:46,605 --> 00:16:51,243
And this led to an incident
known as Bloody Thursday,
317
00:16:51,243 --> 00:16:54,446
which was so violent that student James
318
00:16:54,446 --> 00:16:58,717
Rector died and Alan Blanchard was blinded
319
00:16:58,784 --> 00:17:03,255
and Reagan still carried on
and called out over 2000 National Guard
320
00:17:03,255 --> 00:17:07,960
troops to occupy the city of Berkeley
for about two weeks.
321
00:17:08,027 --> 00:17:11,030
So that he could crack down
on the protesters.
322
00:17:11,230 --> 00:17:16,835
Well,
and one year after this had happened, he
323
00:17:16,902 --> 00:17:20,239
persistently defended himself and stated,
324
00:17:20,339 --> 00:17:23,342
If it takes a bloodbath,
let's get it over with.
325
00:17:23,342 --> 00:17:25,444
No more appeasement.
326
00:17:25,444 --> 00:17:29,181
So he's basically a fascist.
327
00:17:29,281 --> 00:17:31,784
And a lot of students at
328
00:17:31,784 --> 00:17:35,754
Berkeley were part of the like new left,
329
00:17:35,821 --> 00:17:40,726
you know, anti war
liberation of the mind tech independence
330
00:17:40,826 --> 00:17:42,961
thinking that started
331
00:17:42,961 --> 00:17:47,199
Hollerith
catalog and Homebrew computer club
332
00:17:47,266 --> 00:17:50,269
so is that like
we talked in in another episode around
333
00:17:50,269 --> 00:17:55,941
how some of the early like Adobe and Pixar
and stuff were kind of
334
00:17:56,041 --> 00:17:56,742
like you know
335
00:17:56,742 --> 00:18:00,679
incubator was that this and they were kind
of all next to each other and
336
00:18:00,779 --> 00:18:01,346
is that this.
337
00:18:01,346 --> 00:18:06,085
Yeah I guess later
I think that must have been Yeah.
338
00:18:06,085 --> 00:18:10,622
Sixties and seventies
while OGAs was being developed in Russia.
339
00:18:10,622 --> 00:18:11,623
Yeah. Yeah.
340
00:18:11,623 --> 00:18:16,762
Definitely Like a lot of countercultural
stuff was happening that really dovetailed
341
00:18:16,762 --> 00:18:20,299
into tech sovereignty and,
342
00:18:20,399 --> 00:18:23,435
and like independence through via tech.
343
00:18:23,535 --> 00:18:25,304
Mm hmm.
344
00:18:25,304 --> 00:18:25,671
Yeah.
345
00:18:25,671 --> 00:18:29,942
And I think that was actually roughly
around the same time when the government,
346
00:18:29,942 --> 00:18:34,680
because of the Red Scare,
was like putting loads of money into
347
00:18:34,746 --> 00:18:38,417
tech like labs at universities.
348
00:18:38,517 --> 00:18:40,919
That's sort of interesting that Yeah,
349
00:18:40,919 --> 00:18:43,021
very interesting
you brought that up actually.
350
00:18:43,021 --> 00:18:47,493
But that sort of Reagan
was kind of against
351
00:18:47,559 --> 00:18:50,229
these new left Yankees
352
00:18:50,229 --> 00:18:54,633
at Berkeley
but at the same time was, was funding them
353
00:18:54,633 --> 00:18:58,937
to like try and fit
I guess like defeat Russia.
354
00:18:59,171 --> 00:19:01,006
Well I guess two things I'll say.
355
00:19:01,006 --> 00:19:05,711
Firstly, that I suppose,
you know, there's a difference between
356
00:19:05,777 --> 00:19:10,382
the people you have control over
and that you're putting money into versus
357
00:19:10,382 --> 00:19:12,251
the people that are like protesting
358
00:19:12,251 --> 00:19:14,353
and doing things
and you don't have control over them.
359
00:19:14,353 --> 00:19:18,223
So I can I guess I can say that
there's a slight difference
360
00:19:18,223 --> 00:19:22,227
in terms of government perception
of these two sort of worlds.
361
00:19:22,294 --> 00:19:25,764
Yeah, but also, you know, we saw this
362
00:19:25,831 --> 00:19:29,801
with the Cold War stuff with art as well
363
00:19:29,868 --> 00:19:31,103
and abstract
364
00:19:31,103 --> 00:19:34,473
expressionism and yeah,
the government fund.
365
00:19:34,473 --> 00:19:39,211
So secretly or not
so secretly funding the idea
366
00:19:39,211 --> 00:19:44,082
of freedom of expression
367
00:19:44,183 --> 00:19:47,553
because that is I guess an American idea
368
00:19:47,553 --> 00:19:51,690
that they saw as like counter to.
369
00:19:51,757 --> 00:19:51,990
Yeah.
370
00:19:51,990 --> 00:19:55,194
Like the,
the communists communism and things
371
00:19:55,194 --> 00:19:59,031
which isn't, you know,
necessarily true or socialism but
372
00:19:59,131 --> 00:19:59,731
yeah, yeah.
373
00:19:59,731 --> 00:20:02,000
I just, I hadn't really thought about it
in the context.
374
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,003
Yeah that's true. No it's, it's true.
375
00:20:05,070 --> 00:20:07,873
It's, yeah, it was a weird time because
376
00:20:07,873 --> 00:20:11,176
especially for the new left, like you had,
377
00:20:11,276 --> 00:20:14,713
you know, these countercultural lists,
but then you also had
378
00:20:14,713 --> 00:20:19,384
techies like hobbyists
and just a joy in those movements.
379
00:20:19,384 --> 00:20:23,655
And I think that there was
a lot of dispute about what technology
380
00:20:23,655 --> 00:20:29,695
meant, like was it like a machine
to support the larger machine,
381
00:20:29,761 --> 00:20:36,835
the system, the churning of the constant
circulation of capitalism or was it
382
00:20:36,902 --> 00:20:37,603
like were
383
00:20:37,603 --> 00:20:41,306
they tools
to just like liberate us in our minds?
384
00:20:41,373 --> 00:20:46,678
And the kind of the sad paradox
that happened
385
00:20:46,678 --> 00:20:51,650
then towards the end of the movement of
like what I think put an end to
386
00:20:51,650 --> 00:20:55,287
it was that the new left became obsessed
with like, Well,
387
00:20:55,287 --> 00:20:59,758
if you're happy and your mind is happy,
then nothing can touch you.
388
00:20:59,825 --> 00:21:03,962
So they actually,
like a lot of these protests, die down
389
00:21:03,962 --> 00:21:06,431
and they stopped fighting
because they were just like,
390
00:21:06,431 --> 00:21:10,669
Well, we're just going to retreat
and we're just going to form on
391
00:21:10,669 --> 00:21:16,341
like pathologizing ourselves
or either joining a communes or whatever.
392
00:21:16,441 --> 00:21:20,846
And it was more about just like this,
like self-actualization
393
00:21:20,846 --> 00:21:23,882
rather than like fighting with our bodies
394
00:21:23,882 --> 00:21:26,852
to, like, get shit done.
395
00:21:26,952 --> 00:21:30,188
But anyway, it's just, it's
a very interesting movement
396
00:21:30,188 --> 00:21:33,425
and I'm doing a lot of research about it
at the moment.
397
00:21:33,492 --> 00:21:35,227
But essentially,
398
00:21:35,227 --> 00:21:38,330
you know,
a lot of tech companies came out of this
399
00:21:38,330 --> 00:21:43,235
and it also led to the birth of Apple
because Homebrew Computer Club
400
00:21:43,435 --> 00:21:49,341
was a sort of this computer hobbyist group
in Menlo Park in California.
401
00:21:49,441 --> 00:21:54,713
And they had a really influential role
in developing
402
00:21:54,813 --> 00:21:58,950
microcomputers
and just started Silicon Valley,
403
00:21:59,017 --> 00:22:00,519
put Silicon Valley on the map.
404
00:22:00,519 --> 00:22:03,789
So it is it is sort of it, yeah.
405
00:22:03,789 --> 00:22:07,025
An interesting concept
now that we're so far in the future
406
00:22:07,025 --> 00:22:12,731
to look back at that time and
and think about how that was kind of a,
407
00:22:12,831 --> 00:22:14,800
Yeah, sort of hippie movement.
408
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,234
Very kind of, yeah.
409
00:22:16,234 --> 00:22:19,938
Hobby ish and independent
410
00:22:20,038 --> 00:22:24,209
groups sort of hacking things. And
411
00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:26,745
outside of logical gyrations
412
00:22:26,745 --> 00:22:31,750
and that that is now shifted,
That is now to what is like the U.S.
413
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:34,753
economy. Yeah, yeah, sure.
414
00:22:34,786 --> 00:22:38,757
I actually was talking
to someone the other day and she was like,
415
00:22:38,824 --> 00:22:44,596
wait, did Silicon Valley exist
before it became like a tech part?
416
00:22:44,629 --> 00:22:46,098
Like, was it called Silicon Valley?
417
00:22:46,098 --> 00:22:48,967
Like, was they called Silicon Valley?
418
00:22:48,967 --> 00:22:51,002
So the Silicon Valley name
419
00:22:51,002 --> 00:22:55,374
coined by entrepreneur Ralph
first in the 1970s,
420
00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:00,112
originally derived from the region's large
number of silicon chip manufacturers.
421
00:23:00,345 --> 00:23:01,713
Yeah, there you go.
422
00:23:01,713 --> 00:23:04,349
That's from a website tech Target.com.
423
00:23:04,349 --> 00:23:08,153
But it's literally it's I'm just
reading it from the Google search tool
424
00:23:08,253 --> 00:23:09,588
and we have Apple. Yeah.
425
00:23:09,588 --> 00:23:13,291
Going back to Reagan and Apple.
426
00:23:13,392 --> 00:23:18,196
So Reagan was obviously hated by a lot
of the new left counterculture list
427
00:23:18,296 --> 00:23:21,733
that started at Berkeley
and the student protests.
428
00:23:21,733 --> 00:23:25,670
But in this episode,
we'll kind of get to see how, you know,
429
00:23:25,737 --> 00:23:29,307
once Apple became established, it
began to like rub shoulders with the U.S.
430
00:23:29,307 --> 00:23:29,775
government.
431
00:23:29,775 --> 00:23:33,078
Also, probably like you said,
because they were funded by
432
00:23:33,178 --> 00:23:37,416
or a lot of the people working in that
industry were funded by the government,
433
00:23:37,482 --> 00:23:39,951
the sort of mindset which was, you know,
434
00:23:39,951 --> 00:23:43,355
freedom of information
and freedom of the mind attitude
435
00:23:43,422 --> 00:23:46,425
really started to just shift a little
436
00:23:46,425 --> 00:23:49,895
and get within within Apple.
437
00:23:49,961 --> 00:23:51,830
Within Apple specifically.
438
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:54,099
We'll talk about now. Yeah.
439
00:23:54,099 --> 00:23:56,368
So the U.S.
440
00:23:56,368 --> 00:23:57,335
companies at the time
441
00:23:57,335 --> 00:24:02,374
were really swimming in a sort of wild
west of competition as well.
442
00:24:02,441 --> 00:24:03,975
Like I said, a lot of gray areas
443
00:24:03,975 --> 00:24:08,113
with intellectual property policies.
444
00:24:08,213 --> 00:24:12,350
There was a lot of rivalry also,
just like a general hunger
445
00:24:12,350 --> 00:24:16,154
for making profit within this new,
like unregulated market
446
00:24:16,154 --> 00:24:22,060
that Reagan had so generously
gifted to the economy.
447
00:24:22,127 --> 00:24:25,964
And like I said,
one of those companies was Apple.
448
00:24:26,064 --> 00:24:29,634
The story I'm about to
tell is about the kind of failure of how
449
00:24:29,868 --> 00:24:35,340
they tried to navigate
that by the fear of licensing policies,
450
00:24:35,407 --> 00:24:37,709
political rivalry between states
451
00:24:37,709 --> 00:24:41,780
which actually resulted
in a near trade war
452
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:47,586
and just the risky endeavors
businesses had to take to stay afloat
453
00:24:47,586 --> 00:24:52,290
within the emerging
and flooding tech world of the eighties.
454
00:24:52,357 --> 00:24:56,628
As we said before, about 1985,
455
00:24:56,728 --> 00:24:59,898
the eighties in general
were a crucial part of
456
00:24:59,965 --> 00:25:02,100
historical development under capitalism.
457
00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:04,135
Like at a certain point, the U.S.
458
00:25:04,135 --> 00:25:07,539
was very good at industrializing
very quickly,
459
00:25:07,606 --> 00:25:11,543
but then it reached a level
of sufficient industrialization.
460
00:25:11,543 --> 00:25:15,647
So this was a time of like
financialization, and new personal
461
00:25:15,647 --> 00:25:19,150
tech was becoming the mode
to optimize for that,
462
00:25:19,251 --> 00:25:23,788
especially with banking like pages, right?
463
00:25:23,788 --> 00:25:25,757
Exac Palm Pilots.
464
00:25:25,757 --> 00:25:26,324
Yeah.
465
00:25:26,324 --> 00:25:31,229
Fax faxing, the beeper.
466
00:25:31,296 --> 00:25:32,197
Like I
467
00:25:32,197 --> 00:25:35,734
said, Marc Fisher claims that the eighties
468
00:25:35,734 --> 00:25:38,837
was really a time that like represented
469
00:25:38,837 --> 00:25:43,074
these two diverging past
a history could have taken
470
00:25:43,141 --> 00:25:46,444
the Reagan
and Thatcher revolution path was taken
471
00:25:46,511 --> 00:25:49,147
and he says that this was also a time
472
00:25:49,147 --> 00:25:52,350
where we where we kind of switched tracks
473
00:25:52,350 --> 00:25:56,154
from one trajectory of history
into another.
474
00:25:56,187 --> 00:25:59,124
What was the other path?
475
00:25:59,124 --> 00:26:04,563
Well, I guess
socialism and democratic socialism,
476
00:26:04,629 --> 00:26:08,066
strong unions,
477
00:26:08,133 --> 00:26:09,601
I guess that is the question.
478
00:26:09,601 --> 00:26:14,639
Like, you know what what,
what the alternative would have been.
479
00:26:14,706 --> 00:26:15,607
Yeah.
480
00:26:15,607 --> 00:26:18,877
So even in the southern hemisphere,
481
00:26:18,877 --> 00:26:24,149
Brazil had just gotten out of military
rule and had strict market policy
482
00:26:24,149 --> 00:26:29,754
for computer sales and it was not allowing
imports of computers.
483
00:26:29,754 --> 00:26:34,926
So all computers sold in their country
had to be made in Brazil.
484
00:26:34,993 --> 00:26:38,730
I feel like we saw
I mean, probably a little bit differently.
485
00:26:38,730 --> 00:26:43,602
But when we were talking about minutes,
how in France,
486
00:26:43,668 --> 00:26:46,571
some of the kind of impetus
487
00:26:46,571 --> 00:26:51,142
for developing Intel was around
488
00:26:51,142 --> 00:26:56,982
having more autonomy in there,
like tech hardware and software.
489
00:26:57,082 --> 00:27:01,353
But I mean, that at the time
was more around phones when it started.
490
00:27:01,353 --> 00:27:07,692
But I think that, you know,
it was this idea of like, we want
491
00:27:07,792 --> 00:27:10,428
tech made in our country
492
00:27:10,428 --> 00:27:15,033
so that we are relying on like imports
and other things.
493
00:27:15,033 --> 00:27:17,569
I mean, this is more of I like,
494
00:27:17,669 --> 00:27:22,207
you know, a strict law around inputs, but
495
00:27:22,273 --> 00:27:23,508
it was happening around the same time.
496
00:27:23,508 --> 00:27:24,676
Yeah, definitely.
497
00:27:24,676 --> 00:27:28,880
I think a lot of countries
probably had the same idea of like this
498
00:27:28,913 --> 00:27:32,183
technology is coming about like
how do we harness that the most
499
00:27:32,183 --> 00:27:37,789
to make the most amount of GDP
and not rely on
500
00:27:37,889 --> 00:27:43,595
extremely pricey various relationships
with other countries for something,
501
00:27:43,595 --> 00:27:47,132
for something that was becoming
obviously quite important?
502
00:27:47,198 --> 00:27:51,002
Yeah, I think a lot of countries
saw this as like producing their own tech
503
00:27:51,002 --> 00:27:56,608
is like the golden ticket to
to being this wealthy, independent state.
504
00:27:56,675 --> 00:28:01,746
And you know, as a consequence, Brazil
was pretty successful at doing that.
505
00:28:01,746 --> 00:28:05,250
They really mastered
the art of cloning hardware and software
506
00:28:05,250 --> 00:28:08,553
from original computers that were popular.
507
00:28:08,620 --> 00:28:12,090
Not to always bring this back to minute
how or just to always
508
00:28:12,090 --> 00:28:12,824
bring it back to minute.
509
00:28:12,824 --> 00:28:16,261
How we
we did that other episode of bout minute
510
00:28:16,261 --> 00:28:20,665
how in Brazil with
yeah artist Eduardo cuts
511
00:28:20,732 --> 00:28:25,003
and I'm just trying to
like think back to it but wasn't that that
512
00:28:25,103 --> 00:28:30,275
yeah Intel was selling their
system to other countries
513
00:28:30,341 --> 00:28:32,010
but I think that Brazil made
514
00:28:32,010 --> 00:28:35,947
their own cartel hardware.
515
00:28:36,014 --> 00:28:39,150
Yeah and they were just selling that
because when I, because I went to the
516
00:28:39,150 --> 00:28:41,753
he had an excellent
like a retrospective exhibition
517
00:28:41,753 --> 00:28:44,489
in New York earlier this year and I went
and it was the first time
518
00:28:44,489 --> 00:28:47,926
I ever saw a minotaur terminal
and I got very I know they're great,
519
00:28:48,026 --> 00:28:52,731
but I took like videos and everything. I,
520
00:28:52,831 --> 00:28:55,767
you know, real about it.
521
00:28:55,767 --> 00:28:57,902
But those ones I remember were
522
00:28:57,902 --> 00:29:01,072
the French Minotaur terminals.
523
00:29:01,072 --> 00:29:06,511
But he was saying that like, actually
originally they would have been on like
524
00:29:06,511 --> 00:29:11,483
Brazilian minute hotel and it was just
that it was hard to get that. Now.
525
00:29:11,583 --> 00:29:16,087
And then also in that episode,
we talked a little bit about how, though,
526
00:29:16,087 --> 00:29:19,357
like the artistic use of technology
in Brazil at the time,
527
00:29:19,357 --> 00:29:24,295
which was I think this same time,
because it was at the end of the
528
00:29:24,362 --> 00:29:29,200
military dictatorship and it was like
quite a long transition period.
529
00:29:29,267 --> 00:29:32,670
So so during that period,
I think with where stuff was starting to
530
00:29:32,670 --> 00:29:38,143
open up a little bit,
but it was still like a bit precarious
531
00:29:38,243 --> 00:29:41,179
and it
532
00:29:41,179 --> 00:29:45,416
yeah, it was like
lots of artists were using the technology
533
00:29:45,416 --> 00:29:51,089
to make artworks
and to find spaces to in the digital world
534
00:29:51,089 --> 00:29:54,526
to be creative and talk about ideas for,
535
00:29:54,626 --> 00:29:57,962
you know, building, building
the country and, and things like that.
536
00:29:57,962 --> 00:30:03,334
So it's kind of interesting to hear
about this side of, Yeah, yeah, totally.
537
00:30:03,334 --> 00:30:07,238
I guess if you're
if you're already cloning hardware,
538
00:30:07,238 --> 00:30:11,643
you're experimenting with that technology
already, you're
539
00:30:11,709 --> 00:30:13,978
reverse engineering
a lot of that technology.
540
00:30:13,978 --> 00:30:16,915
And if you start producing your own
like clones of things,
541
00:30:16,915 --> 00:30:20,051
you start to realize that
like you can kind of do anything,
542
00:30:20,084 --> 00:30:24,389
like you can really turn it
into your own thing,
543
00:30:24,455 --> 00:30:28,493
but along with that, cloning and hardware.
544
00:30:28,693 --> 00:30:30,962
So they were cloning like pieces
and things.
545
00:30:30,962 --> 00:30:33,698
They were cloning pieces, yeah.
546
00:30:33,698 --> 00:30:38,002
But then they also started to clone
some Apple products.
547
00:30:38,002 --> 00:30:43,908
And one of the one of the first computers
was the first Macintosh.
548
00:30:44,008 --> 00:30:46,611
To explain the reason
549
00:30:46,611 --> 00:30:51,249
for this, I just have to go back in time
a little and talk about
550
00:30:51,249 --> 00:30:56,688
why Apple are so stubborn
with their licensing.
551
00:30:56,788 --> 00:30:58,556
In the early
552
00:30:58,556 --> 00:31:02,393
1980s, Apple was still very much enjoying
553
00:31:02,393 --> 00:31:06,531
the success of their Apple
two line of personal computers.
554
00:31:06,631 --> 00:31:11,035
But after some rocky years
and failed product launches,
555
00:31:11,035 --> 00:31:14,973
they put all of their focus
on a new personal computer designed
556
00:31:14,973 --> 00:31:17,342
for the rest of us,
which was the Macintosh.
557
00:31:17,342 --> 00:31:20,078
That line is very like
you're a spokesperson for that.
558
00:31:20,078 --> 00:31:21,145
All right.
559
00:31:21,145 --> 00:31:24,115
A new personal computer
designed for the rest of us.
560
00:31:24,115 --> 00:31:27,785
It was like made is supposed to be made
for people and like people
561
00:31:27,785 --> 00:31:31,623
that hadn't really touched a computer
before, whereas before
562
00:31:31,623 --> 00:31:35,560
that it was more programmers
that were using
563
00:31:35,660 --> 00:31:38,997
Apple products
and like hobbyists and stuff.
564
00:31:39,130 --> 00:31:43,001
And when it was first introduced in 84,
565
00:31:43,001 --> 00:31:48,239
it also included its own operating system
with a friendly design,
566
00:31:48,306 --> 00:31:51,643
a kind of literally friendly right,
like a smiley face.
567
00:31:51,709 --> 00:31:54,379
Yeah, There was like,
you know, rounded corners
568
00:31:54,379 --> 00:31:59,484
and like,
sleek things and like a crisp monitor.
569
00:31:59,550 --> 00:32:02,487
And it included the Finder app,
570
00:32:02,487 --> 00:32:06,257
which meant that users didn't have to work
with a terminal anymore.
571
00:32:06,257 --> 00:32:11,129
People didn't have to memorize
special computer commands or understand
572
00:32:11,195 --> 00:32:15,967
programing syntax to perform
very basic tasks.
573
00:32:16,034 --> 00:32:19,637
And they had moderate success in 85.
574
00:32:19,637 --> 00:32:22,173
And then sales
started to kind of slow down
575
00:32:22,173 --> 00:32:23,041
and a lot of the team
576
00:32:23,041 --> 00:32:26,878
were leaving due to burnout
and like lack of commercial success
577
00:32:26,878 --> 00:32:31,115
that was really hyped up
by the campaigners.
578
00:32:31,182 --> 00:32:33,284
And the lack of sales
579
00:32:33,284 --> 00:32:37,622
were largely due to it
being too expensive.
580
00:32:37,689 --> 00:32:42,560
There's an article called The Rise
and Fall of the Macintosh Clones,
581
00:32:42,660 --> 00:32:48,599
where Mac, 84, says
that it sold for 2,495 USD,
582
00:32:48,599 --> 00:32:54,105
and that's 500 more than Apple's previous
targeted price and about 6000 U.S.
583
00:32:54,105 --> 00:32:56,574
dollars when adjusted to inflation today.
584
00:32:56,574 --> 00:32:59,110
Whoa. Yeah,
585
00:32:59,210 --> 00:33:00,979
I need a new laptop.
586
00:33:00,979 --> 00:33:04,248
And I was complaining and I know.
587
00:33:04,282 --> 00:33:08,886
Yeah, but also like,
imagine how cheap computers will be
588
00:33:08,886 --> 00:33:12,523
in like 20 years anyway, all of that
just going to get more and more expensive.
589
00:33:12,523 --> 00:33:15,059
Are they're going to. Yeah.
And soon it'll get back.
590
00:33:15,059 --> 00:33:16,794
Get back. Yeah.
591
00:33:16,794 --> 00:33:17,495
Yeah exactly.
592
00:33:17,495 --> 00:33:23,768
Inflation doesn't really mean
that it gets cheaper. No.
593
00:33:23,835 --> 00:33:26,104
So it also had
594
00:33:26,104 --> 00:33:31,709
128 killer bytes of memory
which was not upgradeable.
595
00:33:31,809 --> 00:33:32,643
This is really funny.
596
00:33:32,643 --> 00:33:35,947
The fancy bitmap
graphics required a lot of memory,
597
00:33:35,947 --> 00:33:39,250
so it was actually quite ungenerous
to other programs and they weren't
598
00:33:39,250 --> 00:33:42,687
able to run as smoothly as they could have
just because, like
599
00:33:42,754 --> 00:33:47,825
the interface is a little too friendly,
a little too like pretty.
600
00:33:47,892 --> 00:33:50,161
And yeah, it also had one floppy
601
00:33:50,161 --> 00:33:55,133
disk drive, whereas only
what I know is that like how I complain
602
00:33:55,233 --> 00:33:57,902
about about having only only U.S..
603
00:33:57,902 --> 00:33:59,137
Yeah, exactly.
604
00:33:59,137 --> 00:34:02,407
They just keep like taking things
away from the design and it just made
605
00:34:02,407 --> 00:34:05,476
it really annoying for like hobbyists
and like nerds to use
606
00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:10,348
because they would like with other PCs
or you would like have multiple
607
00:34:10,348 --> 00:34:14,085
disk drives and you could swap them
quite easily for things.
608
00:34:14,185 --> 00:34:16,521
But with this one you just had one.
609
00:34:16,521 --> 00:34:20,758
And it also didn't have a native code
compiler for software developers,
610
00:34:20,758 --> 00:34:25,930
so they usually had to work with
like a separate computer, the Apple etc.
611
00:34:25,997 --> 00:34:29,901
to develop Mac programs.
612
00:34:30,001 --> 00:34:32,270
So yeah, it was also just
613
00:34:32,270 --> 00:34:36,040
kind of like two new and different
of a product for a lot of users
614
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:41,846
and had like a strange new mouse
and like lacked some keys on the keyboard.
615
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,850
I wanted to do like a mouse history
deep dive
616
00:34:45,850 --> 00:34:49,921
because it's so interesting,
all the different designs that happened.
617
00:34:49,921 --> 00:34:52,457
And now I don't have a trackpad mostly.
618
00:34:52,457 --> 00:34:57,028
But when we were doing the last episode,
the Doomsday episode,
619
00:34:57,095 --> 00:35:00,098
they mentioned the trackball
620
00:35:00,164 --> 00:35:03,167
as the like mouse
621
00:35:03,267 --> 00:35:08,172
option that it was, Oh, you get
you can like scroll around the screen.
622
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:09,340
Oh yeah, yeah.
623
00:35:09,340 --> 00:35:09,974
With the ball.
624
00:35:09,974 --> 00:35:13,578
But it was a whole,
it was a new and new design.
625
00:35:13,578 --> 00:35:15,246
It was kind of a thing
626
00:35:15,246 --> 00:35:19,183
that's interesting
because I try to come up with new designs.
627
00:35:19,283 --> 00:35:21,953
Yeah, because I thought the,
like the checkerboard in,
628
00:35:21,953 --> 00:35:26,324
like modern mouse
mice is kind of a new addition.
629
00:35:26,324 --> 00:35:30,261
But it's interesting that the Checker ball
was introduced in the eighties
630
00:35:30,261 --> 00:35:34,699
and I mean, I just miss those,
those mice that had the Yeah,
631
00:35:34,699 --> 00:35:36,501
they had the ball in the bottom. Yeah.
632
00:35:36,501 --> 00:35:40,471
And then you had the bearings
Are alchemists generally fascinate.
633
00:35:40,538 --> 00:35:43,608
I can like design completely feel I have
634
00:35:43,608 --> 00:35:48,546
I like sense memory of the little ball.
635
00:35:48,613 --> 00:35:52,350
It's very it's very sensual Yeah.
636
00:35:52,450 --> 00:35:55,453
Yeah it's a fun little design but yeah
637
00:35:55,486 --> 00:36:00,124
I mean a lot of people still loved the Mac
638
00:36:00,191 --> 00:36:03,027
even though it was kind of dismissed
as like a toy.
639
00:36:03,027 --> 00:36:06,364
Is that
because it was just like, simple to use?
640
00:36:06,364 --> 00:36:07,832
Exactly.
641
00:36:07,832 --> 00:36:11,636
The Finder feature was very approachable
and simple to use.
642
00:36:11,702 --> 00:36:15,206
Kind of a game changer
for computers overall, because obviously
643
00:36:15,206 --> 00:36:19,076
now every computer has like a finder
or an Explorer thing,
644
00:36:19,143 --> 00:36:22,346
but the main selling point
is actually that it was the coupling,
645
00:36:22,346 --> 00:36:27,451
like you said, of the hardware
with the iMac designed operating system.
646
00:36:27,518 --> 00:36:32,156
Since both software and hardware
were designed and engineered by Apple.
647
00:36:32,223 --> 00:36:36,694
So it just worked together quite well,
which was very attractive to those
648
00:36:36,761 --> 00:36:41,432
who had never approached Wall Street,
who had never purchased computers before.
649
00:36:41,699 --> 00:36:45,069
This is the thing, though, right,
that it's like, Yeah, that's really good,
650
00:36:45,069 --> 00:36:48,606
but it means that it's not able to exist
651
00:36:48,673 --> 00:36:52,310
with other systems like outside of design.
652
00:36:52,310 --> 00:36:56,981
LITTLE Yeah, like it's a package,
but there are pros and cons with it
653
00:36:56,981 --> 00:36:58,983
being a package. Yeah.
654
00:36:58,983 --> 00:37:04,989
The Mac also had a ROM
which contained crucial instructions
655
00:37:05,056 --> 00:37:06,657
that enabled the computer to
656
00:37:06,657 --> 00:37:10,728
run on only on Apple Hardware.
657
00:37:10,828 --> 00:37:14,932
This was like a major business strategy
and it was obvious
658
00:37:14,932 --> 00:37:18,769
that Apple did not want to share
their operating system with others.
659
00:37:18,769 --> 00:37:23,908
But outsiders really wanted Apple
to license the OS to other manufacturers,
660
00:37:23,975 --> 00:37:28,913
which was very common
to do by all other tech companies.
661
00:37:29,013 --> 00:37:32,583
What are those people with Bill Gates,
662
00:37:32,650 --> 00:37:36,587
the co-founder of Microsoft, who
663
00:37:36,687 --> 00:37:39,857
who wrote several letters to the CEO
664
00:37:39,857 --> 00:37:43,394
and the head of development of Apple,
claiming that
665
00:37:43,494 --> 00:37:48,432
if they want the Mac to succeed,
they'll have to license the OS out
666
00:37:48,532 --> 00:37:51,435
and that they're a threat.
667
00:37:51,435 --> 00:37:57,241
So a lot of like big short tech
668
00:37:57,308 --> 00:38:01,112
guys like Bill Gates
just wanted to like stimulate
669
00:38:01,178 --> 00:38:04,515
the tech industry so much. Yeah.
670
00:38:04,515 --> 00:38:09,020
They just wanted like everyone
to kind of compete as much as possible.
671
00:38:09,153 --> 00:38:13,090
But yeah,
there was like constant debates about
672
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:16,827
licensing the OS within the company.
673
00:38:16,894 --> 00:38:18,462
There was a lot of back forth,
674
00:38:18,462 --> 00:38:22,600
there was loads of people at the top
that had very divergent views.
675
00:38:22,667 --> 00:38:27,004
But Apple remained to only have their OS
run on their machines.
676
00:38:27,004 --> 00:38:28,472
In the end.
677
00:38:28,472 --> 00:38:31,442
But that didn't stop other companies
from testing it.
678
00:38:31,642 --> 00:38:35,313
The very first clone was
of course made in Brazil
679
00:38:35,379 --> 00:38:40,951
by a company called Unit
Tron, Adam Rosen from the Cult of Mac.
680
00:38:40,951 --> 00:38:41,986
Right.
681
00:38:41,986 --> 00:38:45,956
The initial plan was to negotiate
some sort of licensing agreement
682
00:38:45,956 --> 00:38:46,857
with Apple.
683
00:38:46,857 --> 00:38:50,561
Unfortunate The Apple refused to do this
without owning at least
684
00:38:50,761 --> 00:38:53,964
51% of the ensuing venture,
685
00:38:54,031 --> 00:38:56,634
which was like Shark Tank.
686
00:38:56,634 --> 00:38:58,069
Yeah, exactly.
687
00:38:58,069 --> 00:39:03,274
Know, it was all like Shark Tank,
which was prohibited under Brazilian law.
688
00:39:03,341 --> 00:39:08,846
So Unit Tron decided to go ahead
without Apple's blessing and Unit Tron
689
00:39:08,846 --> 00:39:12,950
had already successfully cloned
the Apple two without angering
690
00:39:12,950 --> 00:39:14,251
Apple's lawyers too much.
691
00:39:14,251 --> 00:39:16,320
So it seemed a realistic target.
692
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,390
So they they did the apple to clone
693
00:39:19,390 --> 00:39:22,860
and didn't talk to Apple
and then when they're going to do the Mac,
694
00:39:22,927 --> 00:39:26,530
they go to Apple and say, hey,
695
00:39:26,597 --> 00:39:28,999
we want to do this right is not Shell.
696
00:39:28,999 --> 00:39:32,002
And they came with a bad deal. Okay.
697
00:39:32,103 --> 00:39:34,105
Yeah, they got they got a bad deal.
698
00:39:34,105 --> 00:39:37,541
And so they decided, you know, if it
699
00:39:37,641 --> 00:39:41,312
yeah, we'll do our own thing.
700
00:39:41,312 --> 00:39:44,448
And it was backed by the government
so they really didn't
701
00:39:44,582 --> 00:39:47,251
they knew that they couldn't
really get into trouble
702
00:39:47,251 --> 00:39:50,921
with their own country
so they were back at the government.
703
00:39:51,021 --> 00:39:51,355
Yeah.
704
00:39:51,355 --> 00:39:55,192
Well you know Toronto was actually
even able to get a $10 million
705
00:39:55,226 --> 00:39:59,296
loan from the government
and eventually also managed
706
00:39:59,296 --> 00:40:04,502
to reverse engineer
the ROM on their chips with
707
00:40:04,568 --> 00:40:07,471
with the national chip manufacturer
708
00:40:07,471 --> 00:40:10,674
and also the support of various
university labs.
709
00:40:10,908 --> 00:40:12,810
So this was a big undertaking.
710
00:40:12,810 --> 00:40:13,778
Yeah, it was huge.
711
00:40:13,778 --> 00:40:18,349
They were also putting loads of money
into tech development and unit.
712
00:40:18,349 --> 00:40:24,355
Trump said that their roms were made using
the specifications from the Macintosh
713
00:40:24,355 --> 00:40:28,759
manuals rather than like that
they had completely copied them.
714
00:40:28,859 --> 00:40:29,927
I like that.
715
00:40:29,927 --> 00:40:32,129
I like the idea of them
sitting down with just,
716
00:40:32,129 --> 00:40:34,398
I know the manual
you get with your computer.
717
00:40:34,398 --> 00:40:38,669
Yeah, It was like Stonehenge,
unlike some other documentation
718
00:40:38,669 --> 00:40:39,937
that they managed to get.
719
00:40:39,937 --> 00:40:42,940
Maybe like the patent.
720
00:40:43,140 --> 00:40:45,910
Mm. And another business.
721
00:40:45,910 --> 00:40:51,048
I mean, either just what I learned from
grace is very complicated
722
00:40:51,048 --> 00:40:56,253
as to how they manufactured the ROMs.
723
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,422
No one really knows.
724
00:40:58,422 --> 00:41:01,292
But regardless, you know, Tron
725
00:41:01,292 --> 00:41:05,329
released the first Mac clone called
the Mac five, went to
726
00:41:05,429 --> 00:41:10,835
with the operating system, even translated
into Portuguese, which is so cool.
727
00:41:10,901 --> 00:41:16,774
Apple heard about this at a convention
and somehow acquired who is the snitch.
728
00:41:16,841 --> 00:41:19,109
Yeah so again unknown.
729
00:41:19,109 --> 00:41:23,347
They managed to get a couple
of the computers and disassembled them
730
00:41:23,414 --> 00:41:26,517
and apparently saw that only a few bytes
731
00:41:26,517 --> 00:41:30,721
had been changed on the wrong,
but that most of it was copied.
732
00:41:30,888 --> 00:41:35,593
Since Apple only obtained
not many the clones.
733
00:41:35,693 --> 00:41:38,562
There's some dispute as to
734
00:41:38,562 --> 00:41:43,133
whether they were just prototypes,
especially copies of
735
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,002
an exactly like
736
00:41:45,002 --> 00:41:48,072
they could have been prototypes
fitted with copies of Apple ROMs
737
00:41:48,072 --> 00:41:53,811
for compatibility testing,
you know, so that it could have been
738
00:41:53,911 --> 00:41:58,516
that only later models had had the reverse
engineer draw,
739
00:41:58,616 --> 00:42:01,385
or it could have also been the case that
740
00:42:01,385 --> 00:42:04,588
whether you did try and even successfully
741
00:42:04,655 --> 00:42:06,857
reverse engineer at the rim at all.
742
00:42:06,857 --> 00:42:10,561
I mean I want them to have been
successful, like to have reverse
743
00:42:10,561 --> 00:42:12,096
engineer, to have Apple to look at it
744
00:42:12,096 --> 00:42:16,033
and be like, there's only a few bytes
that are different is kind of beautiful.
745
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,604
But also I suppose that Apple
protesting about it or, you know,
746
00:42:20,604 --> 00:42:26,277
discovering it maybe makes it seem
more legitimate than it maybe was.
747
00:42:26,343 --> 00:42:29,480
Yeah, Apparently they
they went to the convention,
748
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,284
saw these things, managed to acquire some,
but again,
749
00:42:33,384 --> 00:42:38,622
like the story around
like how they acquired them isn't really
750
00:42:38,722 --> 00:42:39,423
published
751
00:42:39,423 --> 00:42:42,393
like sounds
sort of like an undercover operation.
752
00:42:42,660 --> 00:42:43,160
Yeah.
753
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:48,265
Like there isn't that much evidence
of the difference between the ROMs
754
00:42:48,332 --> 00:42:52,870
because it could have been, again,
that they were just like proto or like
755
00:42:53,070 --> 00:42:57,942
the hardware was just prototypes
and there were fitted with these copies.
756
00:42:57,942 --> 00:43:00,778
Like, it's very unclear.
757
00:43:00,778 --> 00:43:03,480
The whole story is very foggy.
758
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:08,052
But after this little moment
at the convention,
759
00:43:08,118 --> 00:43:11,555
Tron did like make them on a larger scale.
760
00:43:11,722 --> 00:43:12,690
Okay? Yes.
761
00:43:12,690 --> 00:43:15,259
Yeah,
they designed and they produced them.
762
00:43:15,259 --> 00:43:17,728
And Apple got really mad
763
00:43:17,728 --> 00:43:20,864
and claimed that unit Tron
764
00:43:20,864 --> 00:43:24,268
were thieves of apples
intellectual property
765
00:43:24,335 --> 00:43:27,137
and they asked the US government
to put pressure
766
00:43:27,137 --> 00:43:30,441
on the Brazilian government
to stop sales of the clones.
767
00:43:30,541 --> 00:43:36,246
But did does Apple have any legal claim in
and in Brazil at this point?
768
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,048
No. Right.
769
00:43:38,048 --> 00:43:42,319
I Tron didn't actually break
any Brazilian laws
770
00:43:42,419 --> 00:43:46,523
as Apple had not protected
its rights in Brazil,
771
00:43:46,590 --> 00:43:51,428
but with increased pressure
and threats by the United States unit TRON
772
00:43:51,428 --> 00:43:56,200
eventually backed down and their Mac clone
project was scrapped, which is.
773
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,435
Well, that's wild.
774
00:43:58,435 --> 00:44:03,807
It's just like Apple
have so connection to the government.
775
00:44:03,874 --> 00:44:08,612
Yeah that they could just be like
go go be mean to Brazil
776
00:44:08,612 --> 00:44:13,617
because that there's a company in Brazil
doing something that we don't like.
777
00:44:13,617 --> 00:44:18,922
Yeah yeah absolutely It's not even
was Apple selling computers in Brazil.
778
00:44:19,056 --> 00:44:21,025
No. Because they couldn't import them.
779
00:44:21,025 --> 00:44:22,593
No, it's a closed market.
780
00:44:22,593 --> 00:44:23,761
It's not like you can even.
781
00:44:23,761 --> 00:44:24,061
Yeah.
782
00:44:24,061 --> 00:44:27,264
That whole country
is totally shut up to shut off to them
783
00:44:27,331 --> 00:44:31,135
I guess because it was the first
time that this was happening,
784
00:44:31,201 --> 00:44:34,204
they wouldn't
have wanted it to proliferate.
785
00:44:34,405 --> 00:44:34,872
Yeah.
786
00:44:34,872 --> 00:44:38,742
I think also it's interesting you say that
787
00:44:38,742 --> 00:44:43,280
because I think that this was also
788
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:48,619
a good opportunity for the US government,
not just Apple but the US government,
789
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:54,258
to try and pressure Brazil
to start importing computers.
790
00:44:54,358 --> 00:44:56,226
Oh, I don't.
791
00:44:56,226 --> 00:44:59,730
This is just my opinion like this
that I just kind
792
00:44:59,730 --> 00:45:03,667
of made this analysis from what you said.
793
00:45:03,734 --> 00:45:07,004
So what were the what did the U.S.
794
00:45:07,004 --> 00:45:08,372
government do?
795
00:45:08,372 --> 00:45:12,943
So basically, Apple wasn't alone
in coercing their government.
796
00:45:13,010 --> 00:45:17,881
They got support from other tech companies
like IBM and Microsoft,
797
00:45:17,948 --> 00:45:20,417
who lobbied Congress because I guess
798
00:45:20,417 --> 00:45:25,055
they were making in Brazil
and I suppose everywhere for PCs,
799
00:45:25,122 --> 00:45:29,126
they were making clones of
of those computers, too.
800
00:45:29,226 --> 00:45:30,761
Yeah, Yeah.
801
00:45:30,761 --> 00:45:33,130
That was I mean, they were legal clones.
802
00:45:33,130 --> 00:45:34,765
They were legal clones.
803
00:45:34,765 --> 00:45:38,669
But so like,
licensing was not enough money.
804
00:45:38,669 --> 00:45:42,806
They wanted to sell their products
to Brazil.
805
00:45:42,873 --> 00:45:47,377
Yeah, it was it was like a perfect way
to kind of control the financial situation
806
00:45:47,377 --> 00:45:52,015
because they wanted Congress
to hike import
807
00:45:52,015 --> 00:45:56,053
taxes on Brazilian goods
and profitable products
808
00:45:56,153 --> 00:46:01,091
in major industries
like importing into the United States.
809
00:46:01,158 --> 00:46:02,192
Yeah. Okay.
810
00:46:02,192 --> 00:46:05,562
So the products that would be targeted
811
00:46:05,562 --> 00:46:11,368
were things like shoes
and textiles and orange juice and steel.
812
00:46:11,435 --> 00:46:12,002
I mean, like
813
00:46:12,002 --> 00:46:17,808
imagine what Brazil would be
without the sales of havaianas flip flops.
814
00:46:17,908 --> 00:46:21,245
It would be a tragedy.
815
00:46:21,311 --> 00:46:23,647
But yeah, like the effect
that this would have on
816
00:46:23,647 --> 00:46:27,618
the economy would be pretty big
since these were important exports.
817
00:46:27,618 --> 00:46:31,121
Yeah, these like their major exports
shoes, textiles.
818
00:46:31,121 --> 00:46:33,357
RS Shoes, steel. Yeah.
819
00:46:33,357 --> 00:46:36,360
I that's a bit like,
you know, that book Guns, Germs and Steel.
820
00:46:36,593 --> 00:46:37,261
Right.
821
00:46:37,261 --> 00:46:40,130
So she is textiles are shoes and steel.
822
00:46:40,130 --> 00:46:40,631
Yeah.
823
00:46:40,631 --> 00:46:44,701
What was it with your Cyrus
in one like bread justice
824
00:46:44,701 --> 00:46:48,071
or just you know the
825
00:46:48,172 --> 00:46:53,277
the title of my cyrusone project was read
as Bread and Justice Pictures of Bananas.
826
00:46:53,277 --> 00:46:55,445
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
827
00:46:55,445 --> 00:47:00,250
And I mean, even like
before the ultimate hit from Apple,
828
00:47:00,350 --> 00:47:04,121
Unicron was facing obstacle
after obstacle.
829
00:47:04,221 --> 00:47:09,459
And it's even kind of a miracle
that these clones existed because of this.
830
00:47:09,459 --> 00:47:10,794
Like, import ban.
831
00:47:10,794 --> 00:47:10,994
Yeah.
832
00:47:10,994 --> 00:47:15,232
How did they make all of the parts
of the computers?
833
00:47:15,399 --> 00:47:18,368
Well, they just had factories
834
00:47:18,368 --> 00:47:21,538
that were able to make them,
and they worked with labs, like I said.
835
00:47:21,538 --> 00:47:21,905
And they had
836
00:47:21,905 --> 00:47:28,512
did they make their own computers
as well, Like outside of clones, I think.
837
00:47:28,612 --> 00:47:31,081
I guess so. Oh, I want to look into that.
838
00:47:31,081 --> 00:47:32,916
Well, they they were producing units.
839
00:47:32,916 --> 00:47:37,955
One was producing parts
for tech for other industries.
840
00:47:37,955 --> 00:47:44,161
I don't know if they made for computers,
but we can look into that
841
00:47:44,228 --> 00:47:47,664
as an example of one of these challenges.
842
00:47:47,664 --> 00:47:51,301
Rosen states
that even after obtaining their loan,
843
00:47:51,301 --> 00:47:57,074
the government was refusing to let them
import 3.5 inch floppy disk drives
844
00:47:57,074 --> 00:48:02,546
and instead wanted them to adopt locally,
made 5.25 inch mechanisms instead.
845
00:48:02,613 --> 00:48:07,517
And Unicron
did wind up using the 3.5 inch mechanisms
846
00:48:07,618 --> 00:48:10,354
which look like those in generic
PC clones,
847
00:48:10,354 --> 00:48:14,258
but had to build their own floppy
drive factory in order to do so.
848
00:48:14,324 --> 00:48:17,261
Floppy drive factory.
849
00:48:17,261 --> 00:48:18,896
Such a good name.
850
00:48:18,896 --> 00:48:24,167
So yeah, it seemed like they were just
like attacked from all angles.
851
00:48:24,167 --> 00:48:27,137
It was, you know, same thing with the A.I.
852
00:48:27,137 --> 00:48:27,971
stuff like,
853
00:48:27,971 --> 00:48:33,977
totally laborious, like so much more work
than than anyone would have predicted,
854
00:48:34,077 --> 00:48:38,749
but still kind of like,
edged on by the official appraisers
855
00:48:38,749 --> 00:48:42,886
who were funding the project, who were
right, like the government funding them.
856
00:48:43,020 --> 00:48:44,221
But exactly.
857
00:48:44,221 --> 00:48:46,290
But at the same time
making it really difficult
858
00:48:46,290 --> 00:48:48,425
for them to like produce
and yeah, that idea
859
00:48:48,425 --> 00:48:52,596
that they make everything
in country in very specific ways.
860
00:48:52,663 --> 00:48:54,064
Yeah.
861
00:48:54,131 --> 00:48:54,564
And what's
862
00:48:54,564 --> 00:49:00,103
also annoying is that apparently Apple
infiltrated the Brazilian press
863
00:49:00,103 --> 00:49:04,574
with stories of Unicron being pirates
and that they would ruin the economy.
864
00:49:04,808 --> 00:49:06,777
Ruin the Brazilian economy?
865
00:49:06,777 --> 00:49:08,178
Yeah. Ruin the Brazilian.
866
00:49:08,178 --> 00:49:11,682
But that's Apple doing that also.
867
00:49:11,782 --> 00:49:14,117
Yeah. Apple's just butthurt.
868
00:49:14,117 --> 00:49:15,852
Yeah,
869
00:49:15,852 --> 00:49:20,590
but they really tried
to create a narrative of Brazil
870
00:49:20,590 --> 00:49:24,194
being a corrupt country
from this story back in the states,
871
00:49:24,294 --> 00:49:28,098
you know
like really played into their hands of
872
00:49:28,198 --> 00:49:32,102
their, their southern counterparts
like being this like country
873
00:49:32,102 --> 00:49:35,205
that had just come out of the
come out of a dictatorship
874
00:49:35,205 --> 00:49:38,942
and now, like,
everything's kind of going wrong
875
00:49:39,009 --> 00:49:41,745
and there's an article
876
00:49:41,745 --> 00:49:46,917
by some style
and he wrote that some articles claimed
877
00:49:46,917 --> 00:49:49,920
that they had used a government run lab
878
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,390
to crack open Apple's chips to copy them.
879
00:49:53,490 --> 00:49:56,760
And one of the headlines
says your tax money is being used to help
880
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,462
commit a crime.
881
00:49:58,462 --> 00:50:02,399
It's sort of like I wonder if some of this
is what you were saying before.
882
00:50:02,399 --> 00:50:05,802
I guess about like, you know, they
I guess they're wanting the U.S.
883
00:50:05,802 --> 00:50:09,373
is wanting them to open up more
so that the U.S.
884
00:50:09,373 --> 00:50:12,342
can make money by exporting tech stuff.
885
00:50:12,342 --> 00:50:15,979
And if they do that, then they're seen
as like a socialist dictatorship.
886
00:50:15,979 --> 00:50:16,780
Right.
887
00:50:16,780 --> 00:50:19,149
But maybe country is also like the U.S.
888
00:50:19,149 --> 00:50:23,086
government getting scared or mad
that that they're sort of finding
889
00:50:23,086 --> 00:50:27,858
that Brazil is finding their own way
into tech without the U.S.
890
00:50:27,858 --> 00:50:29,993
and, you know, progress.
891
00:50:29,993 --> 00:50:31,695
Absolutely. Yeah.
892
00:50:31,695 --> 00:50:34,998
And sadly,
the government eventually canceled
893
00:50:35,132 --> 00:50:38,235
the Mac five, went to Project unit
894
00:50:38,268 --> 00:50:43,573
Tron, had to downsize
and only made electronic equipment
895
00:50:43,573 --> 00:50:49,846
for industries and their apple to clones
were also starting to decline in demand.
896
00:50:49,846 --> 00:50:51,615
I just had a thought about something,
you know,
897
00:50:51,615 --> 00:50:53,717
at the very start of this of the story.
898
00:50:53,717 --> 00:50:58,021
And you were talking about how like Apple
was their sales were declining.
899
00:50:58,121 --> 00:51:02,092
Is some this also like around
that they're kind of like where's
900
00:51:02,125 --> 00:51:07,964
where's our market It's getting smaller
being under threat little bit.
901
00:51:08,065 --> 00:51:08,999
I'm not sure.
902
00:51:08,999 --> 00:51:11,168
I guess
it would be difficult to calculate.
903
00:51:11,168 --> 00:51:15,305
I know that definitely a lot of
it was just to do with the desire
904
00:51:15,305 --> 00:51:20,544
and being to freaky and new
and their audience had shifted from
905
00:51:20,544 --> 00:51:24,948
being hobbyist developer nerds
that knew how to program and develop
906
00:51:24,948 --> 00:51:31,521
MAC programs to first time users
and people that aren't very tech literate.
907
00:51:31,621 --> 00:51:35,892
MM And it was also just really expensive,
like for a first time user,
908
00:51:35,892 --> 00:51:39,729
why would you put so much money
into this new thing?
909
00:51:39,729 --> 00:51:40,597
You know?
910
00:51:40,597 --> 00:51:41,364
Yeah.
911
00:51:41,364 --> 00:51:42,399
So the government was
912
00:51:42,399 --> 00:51:46,169
the one that canceled the unit trial
or like the Yes, I guess the funding.
913
00:51:46,203 --> 00:51:52,142
Brazil's government got scared and
they canceled the scrapped the project.
914
00:51:52,275 --> 00:51:56,346
I think 500 computers were still
915
00:51:56,413 --> 00:52:00,350
able to be sold and they didn't sell them
because it was scrapped.
916
00:52:00,350 --> 00:52:03,086
They weren't allowed to
it would be illegal to.
917
00:52:03,086 --> 00:52:07,557
So yeah, they it was
it was pretty sad and very sad.
918
00:52:07,557 --> 00:52:10,560
And yeah, it's just wild
that it's like this
919
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:16,233
private company in the United States
and their little fight
920
00:52:16,233 --> 00:52:20,670
with relatively small company
in another country
921
00:52:20,937 --> 00:52:24,941
that has just maybe done
something that upset Apple.
922
00:52:25,041 --> 00:52:25,308
Yeah.
923
00:52:25,308 --> 00:52:29,446
And then they,
they have the power to stop it.
924
00:52:29,479 --> 00:52:32,482
Yeah I guess like almost this trade war.
925
00:52:32,582 --> 00:52:33,183
Yeah.
926
00:52:33,183 --> 00:52:36,286
Of the threat of it
it's a bit of like a butterfly effect.
927
00:52:36,319 --> 00:52:42,759
Kind of like I'm sure that unicorn didn't
think that this was to cause.
928
00:52:42,826 --> 00:52:43,660
No, definitely.
929
00:52:43,660 --> 00:52:45,262
And it was a very serious
930
00:52:45,262 --> 00:52:48,265
threat to the point
where, like, Brazil's government ended up
931
00:52:48,431 --> 00:52:49,499
scrapping the project.
932
00:52:49,499 --> 00:52:52,435
Like if they didn't see that
as a serious threat, they wouldn't do it.
933
00:52:52,435 --> 00:52:52,869
Yeah.
934
00:52:52,869 --> 00:52:56,706
So that's that's like how bad it was. And
935
00:52:56,773 --> 00:52:59,776
keeping in mind
that like Reagan is still in power,
936
00:52:59,943 --> 00:53:03,313
like it was definitely a good way to frame
937
00:53:03,413 --> 00:53:08,018
Brazil and South America
as like this part of this socialist
938
00:53:08,018 --> 00:53:11,154
kind of undertaking movement
that was that was trying
939
00:53:11,154 --> 00:53:14,524
to ruin the economy,
that were the pirates, you know,
940
00:53:14,591 --> 00:53:18,094
and then also the designs for
941
00:53:18,128 --> 00:53:21,131
the Mac five went to were sold
to a Taiwanese company.
942
00:53:21,298 --> 00:53:25,569
But an Apple once again, immediately
just shut that down as well.
943
00:53:25,669 --> 00:53:30,974
That was ad by the Taiwanese
company reinforced it.
944
00:53:31,074 --> 00:53:32,876
So yeah, now Brazil's market
945
00:53:32,876 --> 00:53:37,814
was only open for PC clones, which didn't
have the same manufacturing restrictions.
946
00:53:37,814 --> 00:53:40,450
And it's quite funny
947
00:53:40,450 --> 00:53:43,587
because Brazil's people
just didn't really have
948
00:53:43,587 --> 00:53:46,823
that much exposure
to Macintosh as a company.
949
00:53:46,890 --> 00:53:49,659
And so the Apple sales in Brazil,
950
00:53:49,659 --> 00:53:53,496
once they opened up the importing gates,
951
00:53:53,563 --> 00:53:55,165
were very low.
952
00:53:55,165 --> 00:53:59,069
This like without any like vengeful effort
from the government or anything.
953
00:53:59,069 --> 00:54:02,072
But they were just very low for Apple
954
00:54:02,105 --> 00:54:03,974
because people just didn't
know what it was.
955
00:54:03,974 --> 00:54:05,342
They didn't understand it.
956
00:54:05,342 --> 00:54:10,313
And just Apple had the same problem
that they did with the states back then.
957
00:54:10,380 --> 00:54:11,448
They had them.
958
00:54:11,448 --> 00:54:12,482
They had the species.
959
00:54:12,482 --> 00:54:15,118
Now it seems like an apple problem.
960
00:54:15,118 --> 00:54:18,121
It's a real problem.
961
00:54:18,321 --> 00:54:18,855
Also.
962
00:54:18,855 --> 00:54:19,489
Guess what?
963
00:54:19,489 --> 00:54:24,527
For a brief period,
what Bill decided to license
964
00:54:24,527 --> 00:54:27,764
the OS to third party clone doctors.
965
00:54:27,764 --> 00:54:31,134
Yeah,
they were just so desperate for sales.
966
00:54:31,201 --> 00:54:34,638
And some of the clones
performed better than Apple's.
967
00:54:34,638 --> 00:54:38,975
And the Clones started to take sales away
from Apple just as predicted.
968
00:54:39,209 --> 00:54:42,212
Perform better in terms of sales
or perform better in terms
969
00:54:42,212 --> 00:54:45,215
of like the tech did. Like the tech.
970
00:54:45,215 --> 00:54:48,985
Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, Yeah.
971
00:54:49,052 --> 00:54:53,757
But then Steve Jobs happened in 1997
972
00:54:53,823 --> 00:54:58,261
and he bought
he wanted licensing to end as well.
973
00:54:58,261 --> 00:55:01,731
He very much believed in the original
974
00:55:01,831 --> 00:55:02,599
kind of Yeah.
975
00:55:02,599 --> 00:55:05,602
To couple hard with software package
976
00:55:05,635 --> 00:55:09,673
business strategy
and he bought power computing
977
00:55:09,673 --> 00:55:15,145
which was the best clone making company
worldwide and he ordered them
978
00:55:15,145 --> 00:55:20,250
to end the reproductions
along with the licensing decision.
979
00:55:20,317 --> 00:55:25,088
And since then, Apple has not licensed
the Mac OS nor allowed
980
00:55:25,088 --> 00:55:31,027
any companies
to manufacture Apple compatible hardware,
981
00:55:31,094 --> 00:55:34,831
which I think is a real shame
considering the clones were usually better
982
00:55:34,831 --> 00:55:38,668
and faster than the originals and cheaper.
983
00:55:38,735 --> 00:55:41,738
And on top of that,
the clones were made in,
984
00:55:41,938 --> 00:55:46,343
you know, quite restricted
manufacturing environments. So
985
00:55:46,409 --> 00:55:49,312
just imagine like what
other stuff could have been invented.
986
00:55:49,312 --> 00:55:52,382
And if these damn lawyers
987
00:55:52,382 --> 00:55:55,552
and sanctions didn't get in the way,
988
00:55:55,652 --> 00:56:00,623
it's also kind of like
feels like a moment of shift,
989
00:56:00,690 --> 00:56:04,494
a kind of important moment
in the history of computers,
990
00:56:04,594 --> 00:56:08,898
a way, a shift away
from that sort of homebrew computer club
991
00:56:09,032 --> 00:56:13,069
and that sort of style
of tech of experimentation and hacking and
992
00:56:13,169 --> 00:56:18,775
and play to
this more sort of proprietary style of
993
00:56:18,842 --> 00:56:20,477
malware could suffer.
994
00:56:20,477 --> 00:56:22,112
Yeah, definitely.
995
00:56:22,112 --> 00:56:26,182
Because it really closes a door
like this moment closes a door
996
00:56:26,182 --> 00:56:31,321
on being able to like, Yeah, play around
inside the computers.
997
00:56:31,521 --> 00:56:32,689
Absolutely. Yeah.
998
00:56:32,689 --> 00:56:37,260
Little organizations and little companies
weren't able to they were too scared
999
00:56:37,260 --> 00:56:41,064
to to mess around
with intellectual property rights.
1000
00:56:41,064 --> 00:56:44,067
And this is yet another example of how
1001
00:56:44,067 --> 00:56:48,671
the US's laissez faire attitude
created this kind of like dog
1002
00:56:48,671 --> 00:56:51,674
eat dog world, except it's tech company,
1003
00:56:51,708 --> 00:56:54,711
a tech company world.
1004
00:56:54,878 --> 00:56:56,379
And again, like just
1005
00:56:56,379 --> 00:56:59,649
continuing to make you know, lawyer
paychecks.
1006
00:56:59,716 --> 00:57:03,686
Yeah so anti lawyer this episode
I know I'm really rooting
1007
00:57:03,686 --> 00:57:07,457
for unity on underdog
1008
00:57:07,557 --> 00:57:12,462
but yeah this leads like outside
forces to be affected to like Brazil
1009
00:57:12,462 --> 00:57:16,933
and the US triggers like a fight
and Apple is you know
1010
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:21,037
just so petty
that along with the government
1011
00:57:21,037 --> 00:57:26,609
as their partner in crime, they literally
have a chip on their shoulder,
1012
00:57:26,676 --> 00:57:27,911
which is something that I wrote.
1013
00:57:27,911 --> 00:57:30,079
But I'm very proud of.
1014
00:57:30,079 --> 00:57:31,414
It's good. It's good, right? Yeah.
1015
00:57:31,414 --> 00:57:32,916
Thank you.
1016
00:57:32,916 --> 00:57:36,686
I wanted to actually say that
joke like, earlier on, but I just I had
1017
00:57:36,786 --> 00:57:39,789
You should have said multiple times.
1018
00:57:39,989 --> 00:57:40,490
Yeah.
1019
00:57:40,490 --> 00:57:44,327
It's a sort of tricky situation
because in a way, like, I do understand
1020
00:57:44,327 --> 00:57:47,764
that if Apple or if a company
1021
00:57:47,831 --> 00:57:50,767
has a particular
1022
00:57:50,767 --> 00:57:53,970
vision of how they want the hardware
1023
00:57:53,970 --> 00:57:59,042
or software to be available,
or even if it goes against
1024
00:57:59,309 --> 00:58:04,481
the sort of traditional way
that that style of business is run,
1025
00:58:04,581 --> 00:58:07,083
I do think that they should be allowed to.
1026
00:58:07,083 --> 00:58:10,086
I guess, I mean, now that we're in a world
1027
00:58:10,086 --> 00:58:14,858
where we're so consumed or connected to
1028
00:58:14,891 --> 00:58:19,062
our lives are run by these machines,
you know, maybe that's a different
1029
00:58:19,062 --> 00:58:20,864
and maybe I have a different attitude
around it
1030
00:58:20,864 --> 00:58:24,601
if no, you know, that it was going
to become so big in the future,
1031
00:58:24,601 --> 00:58:26,302
but at the same time like
1032
00:58:26,302 --> 00:58:30,240
it didn't doesn't seem like Unicron
was doing anything particularly wrong
1033
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:35,645
and that they had sort of previously done
similar things
1034
00:58:35,645 --> 00:58:38,982
and that this stuff was just happening
anyway, even though they were
1035
00:58:38,982 --> 00:58:44,787
a sort of big ish company in Brazil,
like in terms of comparison
1036
00:58:44,787 --> 00:58:49,158
to Apple, like in the U.S.,
it seems like it's quite small.
1037
00:58:49,158 --> 00:58:54,664
It's a smaller market, but it's just
it's like calm down, you know, like
1038
00:58:54,731 --> 00:58:55,899
I think what
1039
00:58:55,899 --> 00:58:59,102
what really irks me
with with Apple in general
1040
00:58:59,102 --> 00:59:03,006
is that they very much preach
1041
00:59:03,072 --> 00:59:05,475
a world that is
1042
00:59:05,475 --> 00:59:08,978
tech savvy,
that has freedom of information,
1043
00:59:08,978 --> 00:59:13,683
freedom of access by these computers,
and they're able to,
1044
00:59:13,683 --> 00:59:17,820
like piggyback on that ethos
since the beginning and then like twist it
1045
00:59:17,820 --> 00:59:23,259
and subvert it into their own,
like profit making incentives,
1046
00:59:23,426 --> 00:59:29,599
which actually then in the end, just like,
ends up creating opposing results.
1047
00:59:29,699 --> 00:59:34,404
And that's kind of like the
the story of Silicon Valley right?
1048
00:59:34,437 --> 00:59:34,904
Totally.
1049
00:59:34,904 --> 00:59:38,942
You know, even with, you know, we've
seen it through like physical production
1050
00:59:38,942 --> 00:59:42,812
of computers and funding
and things like that in this episode where
1051
00:59:42,812 --> 00:59:47,717
it was all very kind of happy and open
and then switched
1052
00:59:47,717 --> 00:59:51,955
into a closed environment,
but also just that kind of ethos
1053
00:59:52,021 --> 00:59:58,127
and using that legacy
or myth of Silicon Valley
1054
00:59:58,227 --> 01:00:03,199
and of computers in general
and what we wished computers would be.
1055
01:00:03,299 --> 01:00:07,737
I think it's easy to be blinded by that
myth and that story
1056
01:00:07,737 --> 01:00:12,108
that gets told over and over again
in advertising and in everything.
1057
01:00:12,208 --> 01:00:13,743
That's not what the world is like.
1058
01:00:13,743 --> 01:00:17,146
You know, even looking at Google
and I was doing some research
1059
01:00:17,146 --> 01:00:21,284
on search engines about search
engines on search engines earlier.
1060
01:00:21,317 --> 01:00:26,222
And it is really hard to functionally use
Google as a search engine now
1061
01:00:26,222 --> 01:00:31,594
because it's so infiltrated off with ads,
they're just completely integrated.
1062
01:00:31,594 --> 01:00:33,963
But originally,
the whole idea was that it was like,
1063
01:00:33,963 --> 01:00:36,265
oh, we're going to open up the Internet.
You can find what you need.
1064
01:00:36,265 --> 01:00:40,370
And like all of these things,
yeah, it's this story that we're told,
1065
01:00:40,370 --> 01:00:44,741
but when you actually think about it,
it's hiding a lot of other darker
1066
01:00:44,741 --> 01:00:48,411
and more sort of profit driven ideas.
1067
01:00:48,511 --> 01:00:48,778
Yeah.
1068
01:00:48,778 --> 01:00:49,412
And also, like,
1069
01:00:49,412 --> 01:00:53,449
the more that Apple gets successful,
the more money that they make the,
1070
01:00:53,483 --> 01:00:56,185
the easier it is for them to just like,
get away with these things.
1071
01:00:56,185 --> 01:01:00,423
And it's just tragically funny
how the government, like Reagan's
1072
01:01:00,423 --> 01:01:06,029
government was so like pro laissez
faire and liberalizing the economy.
1073
01:01:06,029 --> 01:01:11,234
But once they got to extending
that to Brazil, they were like, no,
1074
01:01:11,334 --> 01:01:15,304
we have to we have to regulate this
as much as possible
1075
01:01:15,304 --> 01:01:18,808
and we have to gain control of these sales
as much as possible.
1076
01:01:18,875 --> 01:01:21,511
The history
that is the history of control.
1077
01:01:21,511 --> 01:01:26,416
You know, it's this idea of freedom,
but it's all kind of wrapped up
1078
01:01:26,416 --> 01:01:29,752
with multiple levels
of control of the people
1079
01:01:29,752 --> 01:01:33,156
and control of the rest of the world
to keep that power.
1080
01:01:33,156 --> 01:01:36,092
And that concept totally B.S..
1081
01:01:36,092 --> 01:01:40,630
I mean, this is like, I'm sorry about this
episode of so long, but don't apologize.
1082
01:01:40,630 --> 01:01:44,267
But this this like example
1083
01:01:44,367 --> 01:01:47,970
is very representative of like,
1084
01:01:47,970 --> 01:01:51,340
you know, as long as these companies
are made in the name of profit,
1085
01:01:51,340 --> 01:01:55,545
that freedom of access
will never really fully be achieved.
1086
01:01:55,545 --> 01:02:00,516
Like the terms freedom of access in its
full form will never be fully realized.
1087
01:02:00,516 --> 01:02:02,351
So I guess that's it.
1088
01:02:02,351 --> 01:02:04,187
Thank You so much?
1089
01:02:04,187 --> 01:02:07,190
Yeah. No, thank you. Really good input.
1090
01:02:07,323 --> 01:02:08,958
I think we're going to have to end it
here.
1091
01:02:08,958 --> 01:02:12,161
Yeah, I can see the window behind you
and it's getting dark.
1092
01:02:12,261 --> 01:02:14,330
Thanks so much for listening, everyone.
1093
01:02:14,330 --> 01:02:17,734
We're doing
monthly episodes at the moment, so, um,
1094
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:21,504
well,
we will be back with you next month. Yes.
1095
01:02:21,571 --> 01:02:23,940
Have a nice time on your computer
in the meantime.
1096
01:02:23,940 --> 01:02:26,409
Yeah. Have a fun time on your computer.
1097
01:02:26,409 --> 01:02:27,877
Thanks for listening, everyone.
1098
01:02:27,877 --> 01:02:29,912
Bye bye.