Videotexto / 'Reabracadabra'

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Hello, everyone.

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Welcome to our friend the computer.

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This is Ana, as always.

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And Camila is here, too.

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I guess
we don't really need intros anymore.

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So what do you.

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I mean, yeah,
we probably don't, but it's nice to.

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I guess we have very different
accents, so.

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Yeah, not likely
that we're going to get mixed up, but I'm.

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I'm Camila.

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Well, your

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Your intro is actually relevant
to today's podcast I think though

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because you just did like a screening
and you went to

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an exhibition for this episode

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and we just did an interview

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for Cursor Magazine
where I interviewed Camila.

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And yeah, I guess like if you do an intro,
then we can talk about the interview

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a little bit.

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Sure. Yeah. So I'm. I'm.

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I'm Camila.

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I'm a I'm a visual artist and a writer

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and sometimes a filmmaker.

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I had a screening of the film I made

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two nights ago here in New York.

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It was the premiere and it was good.

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It was for this festival
called Prismatic Ground.

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It's like an experimental
documentary festival.

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And yeah, we

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we screened my film and did a little Q&A,

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and it was in like the programing is in
these things called waves.

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So it's like

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groupings of films.

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And my way was called
a Memory of a Memory, and it was really,

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Oh, the other films are really amazing
as well, and it was really nice to see

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my film, like alongside others as well.

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Yeah, and yeah.

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And so that one was about Chile and

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kind of looking at

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like history and the present, like always.

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And it was kind of the project
that I was working on

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as we all before we did our project,

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you and me and our project together
that was looking at Project Syverson.

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So it was, it sort of preceded that.

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And I use similar research for them.

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So yeah, that was cool.

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And then we did, we did an interview for
Kirsten magazine, which is like an online

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magazine that looks at

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tech, the Internet

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and kind of people, I guess, society.

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And so they had the second issue
was themed visions for the Internet.

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So we did, uh,

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you interviewed me, but,
but it's like an in conversation.

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Yeah, it was definitely a dialog.

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Yeah, it was really fun. It was.

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I kind of like started the interview

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with kind of asking about your workflow
because our workflows are very different.

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Something that I noticed from
like starting the podcast with you.

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So I kind of just wanted to know
more about that.

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And then that sort of flowed into, I guess

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also like our maybe kind
of perceptions of the Internet

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and how we use it
and what we can learn from

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the previous pre-Internet networks
that we've been researching.

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Yeah, it was nice to sort of reflect
on this first season

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that we've been doing
of these pre-Internet networks.

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To think about what we can learn
for the future.

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And I think we've been doing a lot of work
kind of thinking beyond the podcast and,

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and looking at our collaboration
and where both we both come from

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sort of like an art design background.

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And yeah, we've been thinking
about like ways that we can

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make other

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creative works and yeah, and for other

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organizations as well that like aren't

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podcasts.

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Yeah, I, it's

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very fun to see like cursors
title visions of the internet

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and then our friend the computer, our name
underneath that it's very it's very fun.

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Thanks for having us on cursor.

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Thank you.

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But yeah the other day as well.

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So today we're doing
it's like a bonus episode I guess.

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And these bonus episodes,
I suppose I've been thinking of them

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as like looking at ways that the

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these networks we use by people
and often like creatively.

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So today we're looking at

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a sort of Brazilian version of Mini
Tell the Frenchman to tell a network

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called Video Texter, but we're doing it
through the lens of the work of an artist.

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So the artist, Eduardo Katz,

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is from Brazil, and he his practice,

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I guess, looks at poetry,
but kind of like visual poetry.

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And he uses language and

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and text on

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computer networks are on tech,
on different computers,

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but like from the eighties
or from the seventies through to today.

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And what was really exciting was that

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I didn't even realize this,
but he has an exhibition

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in New York at the moment
and I went to the

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so the opening night of the exhibition

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and it's called From Minotaur to NFT,

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and it's it and Faria Gallery, and it's

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until June 18th and you should all go
if you're in New York.

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So it was great.

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But what was really funny was that like

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I saw minutes
held terminals for the first time and I.

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You're going to free.

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Yeah yeah.

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So I don't fangirl
really like I can quite like you know

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but I, I was
I realized when you started blushing.

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Yeah I was

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and I was, it was like getting my friends
to take pictures of me.

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Yeah.

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Take pictures of me with these
I mean there's how terminals and I even

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like was talking
to just random people about

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their like so yeah, like what is this?

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And I just jumped into the conversation

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to be like, oh, and,
and then I actually talked to Eduardo.

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He was there
and he was like surrounded by people.

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And then I'd gone into this

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like a second gallery
and I got into the second gallery and then

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dipped back into that one and there was
no one in there is just standing there.

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So me and my friend Erica,
who's Erica already went backstage

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making this video artist as well. Yeah.

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So she she was like,
we should talk to him.

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So we went, we went out and talked to him
and had quite a long conversation

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with him.

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And I was later
I was like, Oh, was I fangirling him?

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And then I realized I wasn't.

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I was fangirling minutes. Hell, yeah.

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Oh, so like, because I only know.

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I only like listen to that video

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of where he narrates
the animation of the artwork

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though we're going to look at
and I only, I don't know.

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I think his voice is just incredibly sexy.

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Was he like, really sexy?

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He was pretty hot. Great.

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Yeah, he has a five.

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He's like, quite confident.

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He's got very good posture.

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Yeah, he he was, um.

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Yeah, kind of reserved.

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But after we started talking,
like the three of us,

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he did kind of really, like, engage

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with my insane questions
about, about his notable artworks.

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Yeah, it's interesting as well
that, that exhibition was called

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from from inital to NFT, right?

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Because I can imagine,
like a lot of these old school

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digital artists are like that.

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Artists are now kind of like
having another little rise again

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because of the NFT boom.

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Well, and I don't know whether that's like
actually welcomed a lot

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by like a lot of like old scored
just because like even Eduardo

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seems like he's quite anti

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like the hype ification of the internet
like he talks about

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we'll get into this later
but he talks about how the Internet is

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sort of
just like another small little tool

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and piece of the technology
that is part of like a larger context,

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a network of of like design products
that isn't,

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you know, it's over
accredited, it's overrated.

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And just like its impact on on the world
and which is like a really interesting

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I think take for a digital artist

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to have But yeah I don't know

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I can imagine a lot of

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that art is coming up again now
because of Nfts and I.

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Yeah, it's, it's an awkward like revival
because Nfts are just so different

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to like nineties net art.

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Yeah, I mean
I think that I want to talk about this

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a little bit more in detail later, but

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it's essentially a retrospective

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this show looking at his works.

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Yeah,
from like the eighties through to today.

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So he has made an NFT like in a new work

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and it's it was really interesting
to see his progression

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through the different technology over time
and he's you know he engages with it

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with a similar kind of face as it,
I guess.

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Well, no, like he has
he has his idea of like

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people and technology and biology and

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how these networks kind of combine and

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looking at communication
and different forms

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like nonhuman communication
and things through all of his work.

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But when he works on specific

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technological platforms or devices,
he engages

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really specifically with those devices.

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So those networks
and looking at ways to kind of play

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with the Yeah,
the specifics of of that tech.

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So I don't think he necessarily like

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looks at these technologies
as like an NFT,

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like the discussion around Nfts,

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which is like it's the future, it's
going to solve all of these problems.

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It's more like, okay,
well in this present moment,

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this is what we have and let's engage
with it right now with the knowledge

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that it'll be superseded
by something else in the future.

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And to look at the progression
of his practice across all of these

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different technology was really kind
of mind boggling, actually.

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It's quite it's a small show, but
having it all sort of packed in there and

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kind of reflecting the screens,

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reflecting on each other
a little bit with Yeah, that's great.

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Yeah, that's so cool.

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I also like love any art exhibitions
or digital exhibitions

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that are kind of accepting of of nfts,
but are also like,

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you know, this stuff existed way
before cryptocurrency

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and it's only been popularized
because of the financial, like

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the kind of efficient financialization
of digital art, which is good.

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But we've existed as artists
before for a long time.

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So and I think, you know,
I mean, this is a whole other topic,

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but like NFT is a there is some great work

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being made that is there?

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No, there is no, there is.

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I mean, it's it's more that
there are some artists that are engaging

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with the blockchain, that are critiquing
it, that are playing with it,

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that are
treating it like like a conceptual

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artist would treat
any sort of medium or platform.

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I would say that like the majority
of what we see as like NFT art, it's

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not the type of art that I would engage
with in real life either.

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There's different layers and levels,
yeah, for

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sure of art and different audiences.

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It's not for me.

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I have a lot of thoughts
about End of Days.

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I'm not someone that's probably going
to start engaging in that space

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because of these thoughts that I you know,
I think it is always interesting to see

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like how artists unpack
and make connections and

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and things like
that is a part of the joy of art.

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And art is me.

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Yeah, I guess I had a similar revelation
to that as well.

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The reason why I hated it
so much in the beginning was because it

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actually just like

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revealed how the art world

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has been running on on finance
since its inception.

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It was an illusion to think
that it was just like for the people

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and like for society and for your brain.

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And it was just part of this
whole kind of economy.

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And NFT has really exposed that, I guess.

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Yeah.

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I mean, there's so many issues
with taste in blockchain that like,

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you know, I'm not going to get into,

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but I think these things are worth
kind of dissecting and art is a good way

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to do that.

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So I'm happy for artists that are
really engaging with it in that way.

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But I think you're right
that it has kind of overtaken

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almost like the history of digital art.

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And, you know, I,
I know I worked on a project

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during the pandemic
with a curator, Sabrina Baker,

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who we together did a series of interviews
with digital artists, including

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she interviewed me

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00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:09,181
looking at

245
00:14:09,181 --> 00:14:13,652
artists that had been working
in digital spaces before the pandemic,

246
00:14:13,652 --> 00:14:18,190
because we noticed in the pandemic
that there was this like surge of people

247
00:14:18,190 --> 00:14:22,528
working in the digital space
and people engaging with digital.

248
00:14:22,528 --> 00:14:24,897
I almost like it was new, right?

249
00:14:24,897 --> 00:14:29,268
So, you know, they
it was sort of forgotten in 2020 that

250
00:14:29,435 --> 00:14:33,405
that there is a whole
like this discourse around

251
00:14:33,405 --> 00:14:36,542
this is thoughts
and other artworks and a history

252
00:14:36,542 --> 00:14:40,145
and it wasn't really being approached
so much in that way.

253
00:14:40,379 --> 00:14:44,049
We have been looking at this for so long,

254
00:14:44,116 --> 00:14:47,286
you know, just looking at Eduardo Katz's
work,

255
00:14:47,286 --> 00:14:52,591
like you see really see this
like connection over time and progression

256
00:14:52,591 --> 00:14:57,997
of, of ideas and from over time,
but also over different technology.

257
00:14:58,063 --> 00:15:01,000
So I think it's worth looking at NFT days

258
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,436
in that context, history in that context.

259
00:15:04,570 --> 00:15:08,874
But I'm sure that it will end
and something else will come.

260
00:15:08,941 --> 00:15:11,277
Yeah, I actually wonder.

261
00:15:11,277 --> 00:15:15,147
I don't actually know that much
about how the conception of NFT

262
00:15:15,214 --> 00:15:18,918
is linked to the pandemic,
because I obviously know about, you know,

263
00:15:18,984 --> 00:15:22,755
the boom of stocks and GameStop
and how that happened

264
00:15:22,988 --> 00:15:26,625
because of the kind of geographic
constraints of the pandemic

265
00:15:26,625 --> 00:15:30,696
and incentivize people
to put their money into these things.

266
00:15:30,696 --> 00:15:34,967
And then also just like be
a lot more in touch with forums

267
00:15:34,967 --> 00:15:39,405
and have people hype each other
up to digitally protest

268
00:15:39,405 --> 00:15:42,408
right against the closing
down of GameStop.

269
00:15:42,608 --> 00:15:45,978
But I
there must be like a more tangible link

270
00:15:45,978 --> 00:15:50,683
between the literal invention of Nfts and,

271
00:15:50,683 --> 00:15:56,689
and how that was maybe accelerated
to its production by the pandemic.

272
00:15:56,789 --> 00:16:00,592
If anyone knows, let me know
because I don't want to do this anymore.

273
00:16:00,626 --> 00:16:04,964
So certainly

274
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:07,533
they are going back to this.

275
00:16:07,533 --> 00:16:11,670
We should probably talk
about the actual art piece, right?

276
00:16:11,737 --> 00:16:12,237
Yeah.

277
00:16:12,237 --> 00:16:17,776
So we're going to look at Eduardo
Katz's 1985 artwork

278
00:16:17,776 --> 00:16:21,680
or like visual poem
called Rehab Re Abracadabra.

279
00:16:21,780 --> 00:16:25,484
So we're looking at this piece
which was in the exhibition,

280
00:16:25,584 --> 00:16:29,588
but it was actually presented
as part of Rhizomes Neck

281
00:16:29,655 --> 00:16:32,624
Anthology Project,
so you can watch it online.

282
00:16:32,624 --> 00:16:35,294
So this is why we're going to
look at that particular one.

283
00:16:35,294 --> 00:16:39,732
So we looked at the Frenchman
Attell in previous episodes.

284
00:16:39,798 --> 00:16:43,836
But, you know, with the success of Miniso,
how France was looking to sort of export

285
00:16:44,036 --> 00:16:48,674
its video text protocol telltale,
I suppose, to other countries.

286
00:16:48,907 --> 00:16:53,645
So this included attempts at installing
a system in Ireland in 1988 and the U.S.

287
00:16:53,645 --> 00:16:55,014
in the early nineties.

288
00:16:55,014 --> 00:16:59,351
But there was a 1982 expansion to Brazil.

289
00:16:59,418 --> 00:17:02,087
It was mainly limited to the city
of Sao Paulo.

290
00:17:02,087 --> 00:17:05,290
And like other video tech systems

291
00:17:05,357 --> 00:17:08,594
from around this time, it was administered
by the telecommunications

292
00:17:08,594 --> 00:17:12,598
department of the government,
which was the state governments tell us

293
00:17:12,664 --> 00:17:17,002
with applications and services
being provided by private entities,

294
00:17:17,102 --> 00:17:20,472
there were other state
run video tech systems, but

295
00:17:20,572 --> 00:17:24,777
this was the largest city, so it had the
most possibility for subscriber growth.

296
00:17:24,843 --> 00:17:27,613
Though the large scale
implementation of the network

297
00:17:27,613 --> 00:17:31,150
was impeded
by a lack of personal phone lines,

298
00:17:31,216 --> 00:17:35,554
which is how it gained
popularity in France.

299
00:17:35,621 --> 00:17:38,357
But in this case,
the terminals were largely placed

300
00:17:38,357 --> 00:17:42,327
in public venues like libraries,
shopping malls and airports.

301
00:17:42,361 --> 00:17:46,765
When I was talking to Eduardo,
he said that they were called

302
00:17:46,765 --> 00:17:52,304
Is these public terminals
because the shape of like the box

303
00:17:52,304 --> 00:17:55,541
or something that they were in
was like the shape of a year.

304
00:17:55,607 --> 00:18:01,780
It's so interesting to think of it like a
like a listening device simply.

305
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:02,381
So in the

306
00:18:02,381 --> 00:18:06,452
mid eighties, Brazil was in the process
of escaping a brutal

307
00:18:06,452 --> 00:18:10,122
military dictatorship,
which had been going for 20 years.

308
00:18:10,189 --> 00:18:11,857
But the process was fraught

309
00:18:11,857 --> 00:18:15,694
and complicated,
and at the same time, there was this surge

310
00:18:15,694 --> 00:18:21,033
in interest in new technology,
which included artists and activists.

311
00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:25,471
So the draw of video text was kind of this
like open interaction,

312
00:18:25,471 --> 00:18:28,674
communication and nonlocality

313
00:18:28,740 --> 00:18:32,878
particularly
because it was these like public

314
00:18:32,945 --> 00:18:34,613
terminals.

315
00:18:34,613 --> 00:18:37,683
So this sort of combined to create a sense

316
00:18:37,683 --> 00:18:41,987
of almost like democratized space,
even though it was

317
00:18:42,087 --> 00:18:45,090
run by the government.

318
00:18:45,324 --> 00:18:47,993
And in 83 a video tech

319
00:18:47,993 --> 00:18:50,996
space gallery code art they online

320
00:18:51,063 --> 00:18:54,633
set up by live radio and Nobel bookstore

321
00:18:54,633 --> 00:18:58,904
and then later exhibitions
such as 1986 is Brazil High Tech,

322
00:18:58,904 --> 00:19:03,242
which was curated by Eduardo
Katz and Flavio Farias.

323
00:19:03,308 --> 00:19:07,246
There was this kind of like energy around

324
00:19:07,346 --> 00:19:09,715
trying to use this

325
00:19:09,715 --> 00:19:13,152
digital space as as a gallery.

326
00:19:13,152 --> 00:19:17,489
So it was a place
that artists could make work

327
00:19:17,489 --> 00:19:21,160
but also present work
and create community.

328
00:19:21,226 --> 00:19:24,997
So many of the artworks created in
this time have been lost

329
00:19:25,063 --> 00:19:28,734
because they relied on the MIT
Itau protocol, which is now defunct.

330
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:35,007
But yeah, it's rather Katz's
work has been recreated or restored,

331
00:19:35,073 --> 00:19:35,807
which is great.

332
00:19:35,807 --> 00:19:39,011
We can look at it
and experience it together.

333
00:19:39,077 --> 00:19:43,282
But yeah, when when I was talking to him,
he was saying that like they spent

334
00:19:43,282 --> 00:19:48,086
such a long time
trying to recreate the exact colors

335
00:19:48,086 --> 00:19:52,824
and loading time and experience
of using the minute. How?

336
00:19:52,824 --> 00:19:55,928
Because, I mean, these works
directly relate

337
00:19:55,928 --> 00:19:58,931
to exactly that system
and the specifics of that system.

338
00:19:58,931 --> 00:20:03,035
And so to, to restore it requires

339
00:20:03,035 --> 00:20:07,372
kind of thinking beyond just like,
oh, what did it look like?

340
00:20:07,439 --> 00:20:09,374
You know,

341
00:20:09,474 --> 00:20:11,243
it's interesting as well,

342
00:20:11,243 --> 00:20:15,881
hearing about the little arts clubs
that popped up

343
00:20:15,981 --> 00:20:19,284
around the time
in the eighties for digital art,

344
00:20:19,284 --> 00:20:22,621
because I know there was a few
and obviously in the States

345
00:20:22,854 --> 00:20:27,459
sort of centered around
or leading up to Homebrew Computer Club,

346
00:20:27,526 --> 00:20:30,729
but a lot of Homebrew Computer Club,
which was leading up

347
00:20:30,729 --> 00:20:34,866
to the inception of Macintosh,
kind of stemmed from

348
00:20:34,933 --> 00:20:39,271
little art spaces
in in Silicon Valley and in L.A.

349
00:20:39,271 --> 00:20:42,307
and in San Francisco that came from

350
00:20:42,307 --> 00:20:47,546
like this hippie attitude
in the seventies, but also was

351
00:20:47,546 --> 00:20:51,883
really drawn to, like the new technology
that was invented at the time.

352
00:20:51,883 --> 00:20:55,420
All kind of consequences
in dark consequences from the war.

353
00:20:55,487 --> 00:20:58,590
But it's really cool to hear that
these art spaces

354
00:20:58,590 --> 00:21:01,727
weren't just in the States
and they're in Brazil as well.

355
00:21:01,727 --> 00:21:05,163
And also not just because
they were centered around

356
00:21:05,163 --> 00:21:08,200
like computers,
but also pre-Internet networks.

357
00:21:08,367 --> 00:21:11,503
Yeah, I mean,
I think it was like this viewing the

358
00:21:11,536 --> 00:21:15,874
this new technology is like a new way
to make work, right?

359
00:21:15,874 --> 00:21:17,876
Or like way to engage with each other.

360
00:21:17,876 --> 00:21:20,479
And artists always do that.

361
00:21:20,479 --> 00:21:24,016
I think there was also I read an article,
it was

362
00:21:24,182 --> 00:21:27,052
it was an article
in an old computer magazine.

363
00:21:27,052 --> 00:21:32,557
So it was like from the eighties
that about a video tech system in Canada

364
00:21:32,658 --> 00:21:38,230
I think who Teledyne
And they had quite a large like

365
00:21:38,297 --> 00:21:40,232
sort of artwork stuff happening

366
00:21:40,232 --> 00:21:43,902
that was I think actually though
it was like state state funded.

367
00:21:44,002 --> 00:21:46,338
I'm sure it was happening
on Unitel in France as well.

368
00:21:46,338 --> 00:21:48,874
We just didn't we didn't cover that.

369
00:21:48,874 --> 00:21:52,477
So let's have a look at this work.

370
00:21:52,544 --> 00:21:58,350
So it's available on the Rhizome website
as part of the Net anthology project.

371
00:21:58,417 --> 00:22:01,019
And there is a little video
so you can watch it.

372
00:22:01,019 --> 00:22:06,858
And Eduardo does do some voiceover
that explains, explains it.

373
00:22:06,858 --> 00:22:09,728
So let's have a listen to that.

374
00:22:09,728 --> 00:22:13,365
This,
this piece is entitled Re Abracadabra,

375
00:22:13,465 --> 00:22:14,966
and it's from 1985.

376
00:22:14,966 --> 00:22:19,204
It was actually displayed online
in 1985 on the mini tail network.

377
00:22:19,271 --> 00:22:23,542
My work has always been very interested

378
00:22:23,542 --> 00:22:26,611
in undoing this mode of thinking

379
00:22:26,611 --> 00:22:30,382
that is predicated on on oppositions
in other words,

380
00:22:30,382 --> 00:22:35,020
binary thinking, where you have
the word over here, the image over there.

381
00:22:35,087 --> 00:22:39,991
So I have always tried to create works
that were predicated on the worldview

382
00:22:39,991 --> 00:22:43,462
that does not operate based on binaries.

383
00:22:43,562 --> 00:22:46,531
The work starts with a triangle.

384
00:22:46,631 --> 00:22:49,301
Subsequently you see a rectangle.

385
00:22:49,301 --> 00:22:52,270
This group of two dimensional forms

386
00:22:52,270 --> 00:22:56,641
evolves into a three dimensional letter.

387
00:22:56,775 --> 00:23:00,379
Consonants are placed in a orbital path

388
00:23:00,412 --> 00:23:04,583
around the vowel, like a subatomic

389
00:23:04,583 --> 00:23:08,754
particle would be, or a moon of a planet.

390
00:23:08,820 --> 00:23:14,960
And when you finally understand
this black curtain down,

391
00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:15,761
if you want to see it

392
00:23:15,761 --> 00:23:19,464
again, you have to push another button
and request from the server.

393
00:23:19,531 --> 00:23:23,535
So I see a computer generated

394
00:23:23,535 --> 00:23:29,941
graphic of a3d letter, a drawn out
kind of asymmetrically,

395
00:23:30,008 --> 00:23:34,312
and all the lines are straight
and it's not hand-drawn,

396
00:23:34,312 --> 00:23:39,151
but it's just seemingly drawn out
by a sort of computer.

397
00:23:39,217 --> 00:23:41,019
And a lot of the lines are different

398
00:23:41,019 --> 00:23:44,389
colors, like red, yellow and blue.

399
00:23:44,489 --> 00:23:48,126
But they keep kind of changing
and they change

400
00:23:48,126 --> 00:23:52,931
by having a color trace out the graphic.

401
00:23:52,998 --> 00:23:56,101
The background is black,
and there are small

402
00:23:56,101 --> 00:23:59,704
specks in the back
scattered across like stars.

403
00:23:59,771 --> 00:24:03,241
That twinkle between being letters

404
00:24:03,241 --> 00:24:07,279
that spell out kind of abracadabra,

405
00:24:07,379 --> 00:24:10,182
too little blue squares.

406
00:24:10,182 --> 00:24:15,120
And the letters in the back
keep changing between squares and letters.

407
00:24:15,187 --> 00:24:20,892
While the 3da in the forefront changes
its outline with different colors.

408
00:24:20,959 --> 00:24:28,066
What I noticed that was quite cool
was the way that the A's shifted in color

409
00:24:28,166 --> 00:24:28,633
because it's

410
00:24:28,633 --> 00:24:31,970
either by tracing its path or doing it

411
00:24:31,970 --> 00:24:35,841
pixel by pixel
on an on an axis on an x axis.

412
00:24:35,941 --> 00:24:39,144
And it reminds me of the tracing effect,

413
00:24:39,144 --> 00:24:43,782
really reminds me of the way
3D images are rendered now.

414
00:24:43,849 --> 00:24:47,052
So 3D rendering engines

415
00:24:47,052 --> 00:24:51,056
usually use
like physically based path tracers

416
00:24:51,122 --> 00:24:56,761
and path tracing is a rendering technique
that uses an algorithm

417
00:24:56,761 --> 00:25:01,266
which kind of integrates
over all of the luminance

418
00:25:01,266 --> 00:25:06,671
that arrives on a single point
of the surface of an object.

419
00:25:06,738 --> 00:25:09,441
And these rendering techniques were

420
00:25:09,441 --> 00:25:13,044
obviously not used yet
in the eighties, but

421
00:25:13,111 --> 00:25:16,781
a lot of the algorithms used now in 3D
rendering

422
00:25:16,848 --> 00:25:21,353
were actually invented
by mathematicians in the eighties.

423
00:25:21,453 --> 00:25:24,756
I just did some research on this earlier
and the main one

424
00:25:24,756 --> 00:25:28,593
that was invented for

425
00:25:28,660 --> 00:25:32,230
this rendering engine called cycles
that I normally use,

426
00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:35,233
if I do any 3D rendering,
which I haven't done in a long time, but

427
00:25:35,233 --> 00:25:38,203
it's pretty much the main one
along with Eve.

428
00:25:38,203 --> 00:25:41,206
Yeah, that one uses

429
00:25:41,206 --> 00:25:46,278
similar path tracing, tracing algorithms

430
00:25:46,278 --> 00:25:52,984
that are based on an equation
that James Chi Kucera invented,

431
00:25:52,984 --> 00:25:57,822
and it adheres to three
particular principles of optics.

432
00:25:57,822 --> 00:26:01,293
The first one is the principle
of global illumination,

433
00:26:01,293 --> 00:26:06,798
the principle of equivalence
and the principle of direction.

434
00:26:06,898 --> 00:26:07,666
You can kind of

435
00:26:07,666 --> 00:26:10,669
guess what they sort of mean, but

436
00:26:10,735 --> 00:26:14,906
yeah,
so it kind of draws on like real world

437
00:26:14,973 --> 00:26:20,145
physical observations,
because in the real world, objects

438
00:26:20,145 --> 00:26:24,616
and surfaces are visible due to the fact
that they are reflecting light.

439
00:26:24,716 --> 00:26:28,787
And this reflected light
then illuminates other objects and turn.

440
00:26:28,787 --> 00:26:31,890
So these principles
that are like integral to

441
00:26:31,890 --> 00:26:35,393
the equation are actually taken
from real life physical observations.

442
00:26:35,393 --> 00:26:40,031
So you kind of have this
like first sort of equation where

443
00:26:40,098 --> 00:26:42,701
iris laws are literally copied

444
00:26:42,701 --> 00:26:45,904
in maths and used in digital.

445
00:26:45,904 --> 00:26:48,473
I guess like abstract functions.

446
00:26:48,473 --> 00:26:51,743
But I just yeah,
I kind of went on a tangent with this, but

447
00:26:51,843 --> 00:26:56,281
I think the path tracing thing
is really beautiful because the path

448
00:26:56,281 --> 00:27:00,118
tracing algorithm is I mean, first of all,
it's like really inefficient.

449
00:27:00,118 --> 00:27:03,088
So a very large number of rays
must be traced

450
00:27:03,088 --> 00:27:07,158
to get high quality images
free of like noise artifacts.

451
00:27:07,158 --> 00:27:12,430
So that's why I traced
the tracing of lines comes first,

452
00:27:12,430 --> 00:27:17,202
and then the more simple surface textures
or backgrounds are rendered afterwards,

453
00:27:17,268 --> 00:27:20,972
rather than it being rendered
like line by line, access

454
00:27:20,972 --> 00:27:26,211
by access,
just like more simple loading of images.

455
00:27:26,311 --> 00:27:27,445
So that was like

456
00:27:27,445 --> 00:27:33,051
that was a cool thing that I saw
in the art piece where loading of images

457
00:27:33,051 --> 00:27:38,657
was suddenly introduced by path tracing
rather than line by line loading.

458
00:27:38,757 --> 00:27:39,357
Right.

459
00:27:39,357 --> 00:27:44,095
So, so with this minute
homework, he's working with Keyframe,

460
00:27:44,095 --> 00:27:48,266
so he actually had to program at pixel
by pixel

461
00:27:48,333 --> 00:27:53,438
cool to be able to get that appear
to get that look

462
00:27:53,505 --> 00:27:56,508
and so it's on a black background

463
00:27:56,541 --> 00:27:59,310
because the black is no information

464
00:27:59,310 --> 00:28:02,313
Yeah so he didn't have to do anything

465
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,483
for the background it was just those lines

466
00:28:05,550 --> 00:28:09,721
that must have been so complicated to
to make.

467
00:28:09,788 --> 00:28:10,522
Yeah.

468
00:28:10,522 --> 00:28:14,125
And you know, he's, he's
using this like proprietary technology.

469
00:28:14,125 --> 00:28:17,462
So it's not like
it was super open access or anything.

470
00:28:17,462 --> 00:28:20,198
He had to, like, work out how to do it.

471
00:28:20,198 --> 00:28:23,201
And then the other thing you mentioned
was about the color,

472
00:28:23,234 --> 00:28:26,471
which is sort of interesting
to think about because I think

473
00:28:26,471 --> 00:28:31,042
a lot of people felt like minutes Hell in
France was a black and white system

474
00:28:31,042 --> 00:28:35,080
because the original terminals
that were available for free,

475
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,383
they were like the cheaper,
early, cheap ones were black and white,

476
00:28:38,483 --> 00:28:42,487
but the system was able to use color
quite well.

477
00:28:42,554 --> 00:28:46,658
And so he sort of plays with that
with that idea as well.

478
00:28:46,725 --> 00:28:48,093
And then the letters.

479
00:28:48,093 --> 00:28:53,865
So it's essentially like it starts
as this triangle in the center

480
00:28:53,965 --> 00:28:59,871
and then it slowly through lines, morphs
or changes into like a 3D letter.

481
00:28:59,871 --> 00:29:04,509
A And in Abracadabra is the only vowel.

482
00:29:04,576 --> 00:29:08,913
And so then around it
at these little red dots that then switch

483
00:29:08,913 --> 00:29:13,318
to letters, switch back to dots with the
letters of the consonants of abracadabra.

484
00:29:13,318 --> 00:29:18,289
So it spells out abracadabra as a whole.

485
00:29:18,389 --> 00:29:19,924
And I think that

486
00:29:19,924 --> 00:29:23,561
the idea of like playing with perspective
in these works is really interesting.

487
00:29:23,795 --> 00:29:26,564
When I talked to him,
he was talking about like like you

488
00:29:26,564 --> 00:29:29,768
said, that the the letters
and the dots surrounding the A,

489
00:29:30,001 --> 00:29:33,638
they could be stars,
but they also could be particles, right?

490
00:29:33,638 --> 00:29:39,511
So that when like at extremes,
the macro and the micro look the same.

491
00:29:39,577 --> 00:29:40,145
Right.

492
00:29:40,145 --> 00:29:44,048
Because you have the A is
like a 3D kind of world and then you have

493
00:29:44,282 --> 00:29:47,952
the specs is like these abstract
stars, these abstract planets

494
00:29:47,952 --> 00:29:52,290
or particles
that make up the 3D letter A or the.

495
00:29:52,290 --> 00:29:52,457
Yeah.

496
00:29:52,457 --> 00:29:56,261
And even the 3D letter
A is interesting here

497
00:29:56,361 --> 00:30:00,632
because he also was saying
and I was talking to him that like

498
00:30:00,698 --> 00:30:04,135
the minute I was in the 3D space,

499
00:30:04,202 --> 00:30:06,704
you know, it's, it's 2D and so to

500
00:30:06,704 --> 00:30:10,508
to then try and show

501
00:30:10,575 --> 00:30:13,578
a 3D perspective in that space,

502
00:30:13,711 --> 00:30:18,983
it's it's part of how he kind of subverts
the syntax of these networks.

503
00:30:19,050 --> 00:30:23,321
There's also this a minute
how low the loading speed of an intel

504
00:30:23,321 --> 00:30:27,358
is really interesting and you know it
loads left to right up to down but

505
00:30:27,358 --> 00:30:31,796
trying to find ways to kind of manipulate
that and to visually work around it.

506
00:30:31,863 --> 00:30:36,100
There's there's other works
in this exhibition

507
00:30:36,167 --> 00:30:40,839
where he's sort of he's
kind of tracing out the infinity

508
00:30:41,072 --> 00:30:46,177
symbol loop thing,
but it's got like a a gap in it.

509
00:30:46,177 --> 00:30:47,612
So it's sort of half open.

510
00:30:47,612 --> 00:30:52,050
But the way that his place
that lines in the pixels

511
00:30:52,116 --> 00:30:56,254
kind of makes it look like it's
loading in a slightly different direction.

512
00:30:56,321 --> 00:30:59,490
And there's another work as well
that has quite a long animation

513
00:30:59,490 --> 00:31:04,329
in three acts, but that's not
how the Minotaur was meant to be viewed.

514
00:31:04,329 --> 00:31:06,397
It was, yeah, that's that.

515
00:31:06,397 --> 00:31:09,400
It's meant to be like a quick,
you know, you load a page

516
00:31:09,601 --> 00:31:13,204
but instead of, you know, doing that
he's, he's playing with the loading

517
00:31:13,204 --> 00:31:17,208
speed and pages
to sort of make a longer animation

518
00:31:17,308 --> 00:31:22,113
and have people kind of concentrate
on the screen for a longer period of time.

519
00:31:22,180 --> 00:31:23,615
Yeah, I think it's

520
00:31:23,615 --> 00:31:29,520
so funny how
I just was really drawn to this path

521
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,858
tracing animation effect
because it really reminded me of

522
00:31:33,858 --> 00:31:39,430
like so many animations that I've seen
that from like eighties graphics,

523
00:31:39,497 --> 00:31:42,700
even from just adverts that I would see

524
00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:47,639
or production logos
that are drawn out before movies

525
00:31:47,639 --> 00:31:50,308
like eighties movies that I've seen,
like even like the Disney logo.

526
00:31:50,308 --> 00:31:55,580
It kind of does like an image path trace
of, of the logo as like a wand.

527
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,050
And for some reason
that just like animation effect really

528
00:31:59,050 --> 00:32:03,221
reminds me of something super eighties
and then I did some research on to

529
00:32:03,288 --> 00:32:06,958
why and where image path path
tracing actually came from.

530
00:32:06,958 --> 00:32:10,128
And a lot of the equations
were invented in the eighties,

531
00:32:10,128 --> 00:32:13,865
even though renderings still hadn't
been put into use yet.

532
00:32:13,932 --> 00:32:16,768
Yeah, and I mean, in this case it's like,

533
00:32:16,768 --> 00:32:21,539
how else do you make
an active piece from it as well?

534
00:32:21,739 --> 00:32:26,144
Because otherwise it's like an image
and you sit and you,

535
00:32:26,244 --> 00:32:28,913
it loads and you wait for it to load
and you watch it.

536
00:32:28,913 --> 00:32:34,052
In this case, it's really responding
to the system, to the network itself

537
00:32:34,118 --> 00:32:37,889
in including the loading time
in the piece.

538
00:32:37,956 --> 00:32:38,856
Yeah.

539
00:32:38,856 --> 00:32:42,961
Which is also, you know, like his works,
as I said before, like often

540
00:32:42,961 --> 00:32:45,396
look at tech networks and like biology

541
00:32:45,396 --> 00:32:49,334
and this sort of connection
to the human side of, of things.

542
00:32:49,334 --> 00:32:54,272
They use tech to speak to this like
very personal physical kind of aspects.

543
00:32:54,372 --> 00:32:54,973
Yeah.

544
00:32:54,973 --> 00:32:59,510
Because it looks like the the computer
is drawing out the graphic, Right.

545
00:32:59,510 --> 00:33:03,548
So it looks like the computer
is doing the art rather than loading it

546
00:33:03,715 --> 00:33:08,219
because it's tracing the path of it
as if it was hand-drawn in a way.

547
00:33:08,219 --> 00:33:10,588
Yeah. Is it on loop?

548
00:33:10,588 --> 00:33:12,390
Yeah. Mm hmm.

549
00:33:12,390 --> 00:33:15,793
Something else
I heard him say, I think in a talk online

550
00:33:15,793 --> 00:33:19,430
that I was watching was about sort of the

551
00:33:19,530 --> 00:33:23,534
his use of language
and the sort of transformation of language

552
00:33:23,534 --> 00:33:27,805
and appearance
and disappearance and digital poetry.

553
00:33:27,805 --> 00:33:32,110
I think he often makes works
where where he plays with language

554
00:33:32,110 --> 00:33:37,782
in a way where it's like the language
or the text doesn't want to be understood,

555
00:33:37,882 --> 00:33:43,788
so it will flash into frame and disappear
or it'll kind of swirl around you.

556
00:33:43,788 --> 00:33:49,360
Or so I think it's cool to look at these,
look at how he uses language

557
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:54,966
or text in these specific
digital spaces is another work

558
00:33:55,033 --> 00:33:55,366
in the

559
00:33:55,366 --> 00:33:59,337
exhibition that's not on a minute
how I for one where it's on like a like a

560
00:33:59,370 --> 00:34:00,371
O computer

561
00:34:00,371 --> 00:34:06,310
and it's almost like a top down
view of a cube, but it's made out of text.

562
00:34:06,411 --> 00:34:09,414
So yeah, kind of like

563
00:34:09,614 --> 00:34:12,617
how these spaces can be used as like

564
00:34:12,784 --> 00:34:17,622
a space of imagination
as a space of, like transformation.

565
00:34:17,688 --> 00:34:22,193
It's not just he doesn't see
these as just like a flat canvas.

566
00:34:22,293 --> 00:34:25,263
It's, it's a whole world. So. Yeah, yeah.

567
00:34:25,263 --> 00:34:28,900
Which is probably why he experiments
with concrete poetry a lot.

568
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:32,170
It's, it's sort of
what concrete poetry is meant to do.

569
00:34:32,170 --> 00:34:34,472
It's to display.

570
00:34:34,472 --> 00:34:37,341
I mean, for me,
I only like concrete poetry

571
00:34:37,341 --> 00:34:41,112
because it shows that the awkwardness
of language and the awkwardness

572
00:34:41,279 --> 00:34:44,982
like linear language,
and that you, there's like so much more

573
00:34:44,982 --> 00:34:49,120
in terms of communication
other than just semiotics and vocabulary.

574
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,858
And in this piece I think it's applicable
because I also keep thinking

575
00:34:53,858 --> 00:34:57,895
about the word video text
and how sort of awkward that is,

576
00:34:57,895 --> 00:35:01,866
because it's, it comes from these
the hyphenate IT or compound

577
00:35:01,866 --> 00:35:06,003
word of video text, which is English,
and then they just added an O at the end

578
00:35:06,003 --> 00:35:10,441
to kind of they added a T in an hour
I guess because the New York Times is.

579
00:35:10,641 --> 00:35:12,110
Oh true.

580
00:35:12,110 --> 00:35:12,844
Yeah.

581
00:35:12,844 --> 00:35:16,214
Yeah, you can be well,
I guess you could say video tech.

582
00:35:16,214 --> 00:35:20,418
So I mean, I don't know, make more space
to know what to know.

583
00:35:20,518 --> 00:35:23,421
The lines of grammar. Yeah.

584
00:35:23,521 --> 00:35:26,691
But yeah, there is something

585
00:35:26,791 --> 00:35:30,061
probably significant to say

586
00:35:30,061 --> 00:35:33,064
about the introduction of technologies

587
00:35:33,097 --> 00:35:37,768
that were then literally introduced
a whole new subsector of language

588
00:35:37,835 --> 00:35:41,672
to these nations
that where they had to gather.

589
00:35:41,672 --> 00:35:46,010
Yeah, a new language to be able to define
and talk about these new technologies

590
00:35:46,010 --> 00:35:49,380
that were that were being used,
even if it was invented in the country

591
00:35:49,380 --> 00:35:53,851
like it still took influence
from cybernetics and maths.

592
00:35:53,985 --> 00:35:56,888
And we all know that like basically maths
and algebra

593
00:35:56,888 --> 00:36:00,358
is just a hybrid of different languages.

594
00:36:00,525 --> 00:36:06,397
But yeah, video text is like a funny,
funny word I like, Yeah, yeah.

595
00:36:06,397 --> 00:36:10,868
I mean there were so many no words
for the different networks

596
00:36:10,935 --> 00:36:15,473
that were essentially
using the same like base the base words.

597
00:36:15,573 --> 00:36:18,543
The other thing that I thought was kind of
interesting about the show was that,

598
00:36:18,609 --> 00:36:22,480
you know, these works are on
Frenchmen at whole terminals,

599
00:36:22,580 --> 00:36:23,214
but, you know,

600
00:36:23,214 --> 00:36:27,518
in Brazil that
they had different styles of terminals.

601
00:36:27,585 --> 00:36:31,956
Yeah, I think it actually does add
an interesting like historical component,

602
00:36:31,989 --> 00:36:34,358
especially because
the machines were French,

603
00:36:34,358 --> 00:36:36,627
they had French writing on them.

604
00:36:36,627 --> 00:36:41,132
So at the show I heard people talking
and being like, Oh, it's in French.

605
00:36:41,199 --> 00:36:45,269
It's like, well,
this is why I, I guess to close.

606
00:36:45,269 --> 00:36:47,471
We spoke about this earlier,

607
00:36:47,471 --> 00:36:50,741
that what I found interesting
about the exhibition was that it

608
00:36:50,741 --> 00:36:53,878
was this like retrospective of his works
that use

609
00:36:53,878 --> 00:36:57,014
specific technologies, technology

610
00:36:57,014 --> 00:37:00,851
as a material,
but also as a venue or as like a space.

611
00:37:00,952 --> 00:37:02,253
So there were minute how works.

612
00:37:02,253 --> 00:37:06,624
That was an old Macintosh,
a work on a macintosh that I got to like

613
00:37:06,691 --> 00:37:08,192
click, click with.

614
00:37:08,192 --> 00:37:10,194
I was like, Can I touch this?

615
00:37:10,261 --> 00:37:12,196
There's also a slow scan TV,

616
00:37:12,196 --> 00:37:17,134
which would use like a telephone network
to receive images and a few other things.

617
00:37:17,134 --> 00:37:22,607
I was a work that use Google Maps
and he had a gif as well.

618
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,011
Like it was sort of, you know, it was
interesting to see them all together

619
00:37:27,078 --> 00:37:30,881
and like what it gave
wasn't a feeling of an artist

620
00:37:30,881 --> 00:37:36,354
that was like using emerging technology
and being like into the future.

621
00:37:36,354 --> 00:37:40,691
Whatever seen on Mars,
it was more like an artist

622
00:37:40,691 --> 00:37:44,962
engaging with different forms
of technology in the present.

623
00:37:45,062 --> 00:37:49,567
Yeah, like I said before, like in this
current moment, what is being used?

624
00:37:49,734 --> 00:37:52,770
How is it being used
and what does it mean?

625
00:37:52,803 --> 00:37:54,238
Where's it come from? Where's it going?

626
00:37:54,238 --> 00:37:58,042
But with this real knowledge
that it will end

627
00:37:58,142 --> 00:38:02,013
and be supplanted by something else,
like all civilizations fall or whatever,

628
00:38:02,013 --> 00:38:06,584
You know, it's like it's not it's
yeah it didn't tool

629
00:38:06,684 --> 00:38:10,588
yeah even like everything
the internet works yeah yeah yeah

630
00:38:10,655 --> 00:38:14,325
and there was I did read a quote
and there was a New York Times

631
00:38:14,325 --> 00:38:16,227
article about that

632
00:38:16,227 --> 00:38:19,697
and the reason new are anthology
exhibition

633
00:38:19,697 --> 00:38:24,602
that was at the new museum
I think in 2019 Cuts is is quoted

634
00:38:24,602 --> 00:38:28,873
in that saying this network
no longer exists referring to the minute

635
00:38:28,873 --> 00:38:33,444
how just like the internet we have now
will one day no longer exist.

636
00:38:33,511 --> 00:38:36,714
There's a general misconception
when we talk about online culture.

637
00:38:36,947 --> 00:38:41,185
Everyone is so obsessed with the internet,
but to me it's a historical phenomenon.

638
00:38:41,419 --> 00:38:44,255
It will be superseded by other networks
in the future.

639
00:38:44,255 --> 00:38:46,457
Yeah, exactly.

640
00:38:46,457 --> 00:38:48,592
That's kind
of what we talked about in the beginning.

641
00:38:48,592 --> 00:38:48,926
Yeah.

642
00:38:48,926 --> 00:38:52,630
His take on the internet being obsolete
in the future and not being this

643
00:38:52,630 --> 00:38:56,100
like singular tool that will last forever.

644
00:38:56,100 --> 00:39:01,405
But I wonder if taking that approach,
which I don't know how many people are

645
00:39:01,405 --> 00:39:05,343
kind of considering it from that angle,
I wonder if that changes.

646
00:39:05,343 --> 00:39:08,245
Thinking about the internet as as forever.

647
00:39:08,245 --> 00:39:11,482
Let's like develop it as much as we can

648
00:39:11,482 --> 00:39:15,286
instead of the idea that it might end
in something else might come about.

649
00:39:15,353 --> 00:39:17,822
That changes my perspective on it
a little bit.

650
00:39:17,822 --> 00:39:21,726
On our tech existence,
on our on the human condition.

651
00:39:21,792 --> 00:39:22,593
Yeah, for sure.

652
00:39:22,593 --> 00:39:26,464
And I think it negates
the idea of the Internet

653
00:39:26,464 --> 00:39:32,770
being super abstract as well,
because the Internet is so reliant on

654
00:39:32,903 --> 00:39:38,476
like physical things and servers
and where their place could

655
00:39:38,576 --> 00:39:42,012
geographical placement of them
and who owns them

656
00:39:42,012 --> 00:39:43,914
and where are the coders base.

657
00:39:43,914 --> 00:39:49,620
It's nice to know that the Internet isn't
this like abstract, impenetrable thing

658
00:39:49,620 --> 00:39:53,724
of like a ghost of a tool
that will always kind of remain

659
00:39:53,724 --> 00:39:54,959
or always be in the ether?

660
00:39:54,959 --> 00:39:59,997
Like, No, it's actually depends
on very physical, very real things.

661
00:40:00,064 --> 00:40:04,668
So obviously that will make it obsolete
in one way or another.

662
00:40:04,769 --> 00:40:08,139
It also makes me
think a lot about conservation

663
00:40:08,139 --> 00:40:12,810
and kind of, yeah, archiving
and the importance of that.

664
00:40:12,877 --> 00:40:16,647
You know,
this artwork had to be restored through,

665
00:40:16,647 --> 00:40:20,751
I imagine, quite a costly process,
costly and time consuming.

666
00:40:20,751 --> 00:40:23,754
You know, not
everyone has the ability to do that.

667
00:40:23,888 --> 00:40:28,893
So thinking about like what would happen
if, you know, in 30 years or something,

668
00:40:28,893 --> 00:40:33,964
we have a different network
and what we have now isn't accessible.

669
00:40:34,031 --> 00:40:35,466
Yeah, for sure.

670
00:40:35,466 --> 00:40:37,201
I have one last question.

671
00:40:37,201 --> 00:40:38,035
Okay.

672
00:40:38,035 --> 00:40:43,441
The title of the work,
it's Rehab or Kadabra or Abracadabra.

673
00:40:43,441 --> 00:40:47,778
And I was just wondering that
because this network was like a new

674
00:40:47,778 --> 00:40:52,416
creation of magic, like new information,
or is it maybe also something

675
00:40:52,416 --> 00:40:56,987
a little bit more to do with
like the abstraction of how information

676
00:40:56,987 --> 00:41:00,724
is is rendered, like the abstraction of
like what I mentioned earlier

677
00:41:00,724 --> 00:41:05,362
with physical laws
being put into equations to create

678
00:41:05,396 --> 00:41:10,000
rendered
digital duplicates of visualizations like

679
00:41:10,067 --> 00:41:15,072
is that a reference to the title or what,
what's the meaning behind it.

680
00:41:15,306 --> 00:41:16,273
I don't know.

681
00:41:16,273 --> 00:41:20,244
I mean, the re abracadabra,
I think it's like referring to this sort

682
00:41:20,244 --> 00:41:26,650
of like loop that it's on, perhaps
in the reveal of the sort of like triangle

683
00:41:26,684 --> 00:41:32,122
is like fundamental structure
into this, a shape

684
00:41:32,223 --> 00:41:36,760
which maybe is, you know, it's
like the first letter of the alphabet.

685
00:41:36,827 --> 00:41:43,767
Actually, I actually just Googled
the meaning of the origin Abracadabra

686
00:41:43,767 --> 00:41:47,471
and it says that it's from the Aramaic
phrase

687
00:41:47,705 --> 00:41:50,708
avra dobra.

688
00:41:50,708 --> 00:41:55,246
Two separate words,
meaning I will create as I speak.

689
00:41:55,346 --> 00:41:57,081
So I think, yeah.

690
00:41:57,081 --> 00:42:01,685
And then it says that the source is three
Hebrew words ad father and son.

691
00:42:01,752 --> 00:42:05,422
And I could, which is the Holy Spirit.

692
00:42:05,523 --> 00:42:06,423
So yeah, I think

693
00:42:06,423 --> 00:42:10,194
it's probably something also to do
with the actual like rendering process

694
00:42:10,194 --> 00:42:15,232
is that he because he yeah he was
I mean this a 70 layers and this works

695
00:42:15,332 --> 00:42:19,003
because there's another work
that is a barcode

696
00:42:19,103 --> 00:42:23,007
like the image of a barcode and

697
00:42:23,107 --> 00:42:27,411
and I think you know like the eighties
the barcodes like mid

698
00:42:27,411 --> 00:42:31,482
eighties barcodes like a new thing and

699
00:42:31,549 --> 00:42:34,818
kind of strange
and you know because the barcode

700
00:42:34,818 --> 00:42:39,757
has like the lines but then it has text
and numbers down the bottom

701
00:42:39,823 --> 00:42:42,860
and so he has like it's the barcode

702
00:42:42,860 --> 00:42:45,863
but then the
the numbers in the letters like change.

703
00:42:46,030 --> 00:42:49,667
And as they're changing,
it's like playing with the word it's

704
00:42:49,667 --> 00:42:53,304
like they use
I was playing with the word like

705
00:42:53,304 --> 00:42:58,409
God and me in Portuguese,

706
00:42:58,475 --> 00:42:59,910
the way that they kind of pop up.

707
00:42:59,910 --> 00:43:03,180
And then I think there's like
there's numbers too.

708
00:43:03,180 --> 00:43:04,982
And from memory, I don't remember.

709
00:43:04,982 --> 00:43:07,484
I mean, I think it has like the year.

710
00:43:07,484 --> 00:43:11,021
I think, yeah, I think the numbers, the,
the numbers that come up as the year

711
00:43:11,021 --> 00:43:12,356
that it was created.

712
00:43:12,356 --> 00:43:14,658
Oh, okay. Wow. Cool. Yeah. Yeah.

713
00:43:14,658 --> 00:43:19,096
Because he uses, he uses the blocks
of the abracadabra letters I guess

714
00:43:19,096 --> 00:43:23,133
also to create some kind of pattern
of meaning like barcodes.

715
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:24,902
Um, yeah.

716
00:43:24,902 --> 00:43:29,340
It also reminds me of when I code as well.

717
00:43:29,340 --> 00:43:32,610
Sometimes I have this great egoistic
like God, like complex

718
00:43:32,610 --> 00:43:36,080
of I'm thinking
that I'm writing things into existence.

719
00:43:36,180 --> 00:43:40,884
So sometimes I'm like that, like coding
is so cool because I'm literally writing,

720
00:43:40,918 --> 00:43:44,622
typing out these visualizations,
especially in the beginning.

721
00:43:44,622 --> 00:43:45,189
Not anymore.

722
00:43:45,189 --> 00:43:49,627
I had this new sort of like magical flair
of, of creating work

723
00:43:49,627 --> 00:43:51,261
was like just writing it out

724
00:43:51,261 --> 00:43:55,366
and then it would turn into this
different visual representation.

725
00:43:55,599 --> 00:44:00,304
I guess I get the opposite feeling
when I go into the

726
00:44:00,304 --> 00:44:05,843
like Inspector, when I'm on websites,
I just start deleting stuff, you know,

727
00:44:05,943 --> 00:44:07,945
like a feeling of destruction.

728
00:44:07,945 --> 00:44:08,245
Yeah.

729
00:44:08,245 --> 00:44:11,615
It's the antidote to the abracadabra.

730
00:44:11,682 --> 00:44:12,316
Yeah.

731
00:44:12,316 --> 00:44:13,150
I'm so jealous.

732
00:44:13,150 --> 00:44:14,652
I'm like, not in New York.

733
00:44:14,652 --> 00:44:16,253
And it was horrible.

734
00:44:16,253 --> 00:44:19,757
Very much like, yeah,

735
00:44:19,857 --> 00:44:20,824
like I saw it.

736
00:44:20,824 --> 00:44:22,693
And then I was like, What?

737
00:44:22,693 --> 00:44:26,597
And yeah, I managed to get out to the,
to the opening

738
00:44:26,597 --> 00:44:32,102
and yeah, so it's on until 18th of June,
so I'll put details in the show notes

739
00:44:32,102 --> 00:44:36,373
and the link to the Rhizome page
where you can watch it as well.

740
00:44:36,373 --> 00:44:40,744
You know, in my practice
and also in this podcast and our practice

741
00:44:40,744 --> 00:44:45,649
together, where we're looking
at how history flows towards the present.

742
00:44:45,683 --> 00:44:49,853
It was so great to see,
like I keep thinking about it,

743
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,290
these works seem simple when you first
look at them, but have so many layers,

744
00:44:53,290 --> 00:44:57,361
and especially when you think about them
in conjunction with each other

745
00:44:57,361 --> 00:45:01,365
and juxtaposing these like works
from the eighties through to now,

746
00:45:01,465 --> 00:45:04,802
it really, you know,
it was quite like meaningful.

747
00:45:04,935 --> 00:45:06,670
It felt,

748
00:45:06,770 --> 00:45:07,371
I don't have a way.

749
00:45:07,371 --> 00:45:13,077
I felt like the stars aligned
and we are doing the right thing

750
00:45:13,143 --> 00:45:14,511
by doing this podcast.

751
00:45:14,511 --> 00:45:19,316
And we were manifesting things
into into reality

752
00:45:19,383 --> 00:45:22,986
that way, that if

753
00:45:23,053 --> 00:45:23,353
cool.

754
00:45:23,353 --> 00:45:25,022
Well thanks for that.

755
00:45:25,022 --> 00:45:28,292
I've enjoyed experiencing
that online exhibition

756
00:45:28,292 --> 00:45:31,628
with you and being able to review it

757
00:45:31,695 --> 00:45:34,498
in real Marin Review.

758
00:45:34,498 --> 00:45:36,400
Yeah,

759
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,035
from the eighties,

760
00:45:38,035 --> 00:45:40,904
at least specifically in many cases.

761
00:45:40,904 --> 00:45:42,272
You would love that.

762
00:45:42,272 --> 00:45:43,407
I would love that.

763
00:45:43,407 --> 00:45:46,243
I'm not sure how long the podcast lasts.

764
00:45:46,243 --> 00:45:49,246
I'm sure it would just Eduardo
Katz's work.

765
00:45:49,246 --> 00:45:53,951
Like the full works that were in the show
have just like, you know, the establish.

766
00:45:53,951 --> 00:45:54,852
There's so many layers.

767
00:45:54,852 --> 00:45:58,455
So I'm sure we could talk for ages. But

768
00:45:58,555 --> 00:46:01,592
yes, next up we're going to do

769
00:46:01,658 --> 00:46:06,730
Belgium text,
which is a German Btecs system.

770
00:46:06,730 --> 00:46:07,498
I guess

771
00:46:07,498 --> 00:46:11,802
we're going to be recording that together
or separately depending on the situation.

772
00:46:11,802 --> 00:46:14,805
But Camila's going to be in London
next week.

773
00:46:14,905 --> 00:46:16,240
I'm going to visit Ana.

774
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:19,743
You know, we've never met, so I know.

775
00:46:19,777 --> 00:46:21,578
I don't know how tall she is.

776
00:46:21,578 --> 00:46:24,982
Yeah, this is the pre internet

777
00:46:25,082 --> 00:46:27,818
networks like version of the podcast.

778
00:46:27,818 --> 00:46:31,321
And then after we meet
it will be post-internet.

779
00:46:31,321 --> 00:46:33,323
Oh, it's going to be completely different.

780
00:46:33,323 --> 00:46:34,992
So get ready.

781
00:46:34,992 --> 00:46:35,926
Yeah.

782
00:46:35,926 --> 00:46:37,127
Very exciting.

783
00:46:37,127 --> 00:46:38,729
Thanks for listening everyone.

784
00:46:38,729 --> 00:46:41,799
And go see the show
if you're in New York. Yes.

785
00:46:41,965 --> 00:46:46,570
Or if you're on the internet, you can
check it out on our anthology as well.

786
00:46:46,670 --> 00:46:50,007
Well, this specific
this specific work, right?

787
00:46:50,073 --> 00:46:51,942
Yeah, this specific piece. Yeah.

788
00:46:51,942 --> 00:46:53,844
Okay. Cute.

789
00:46:53,844 --> 00:46:57,047
Thanks, everyone. Goodbye.

790
00:46:57,147 --> 00:46:58,081
It's time to go.